Galations 6:8 says " For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.Matthew 10:22 says "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Verses like these have been causing me to seriously rethink the typical church view of salvation. I was always taught that if you just said "the prayer" you were eternally secure. However, the more that I study the more it seems like entering into covenant with Yeshua with our mouth is just the beginning of a process. If that is the case, then what about verses like Acts 2:21 " And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Or Romans 10:9 " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. I can see both sides of the issue, but which has more merit?
Then you throw in a twist like 1 Corinthians 3:15 " If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. What are your thoughts? Shalom
Answer: YES!
ReplyDeleteYes, it is instantaneous and a continual process.
ReplyDeleteI would agree with Bo on this one.
ReplyDeleteWhen I think of being born again (John 3), I compare it to our physical birth (not completely). Or we were dead, now alive. Blind, now see. All those seem to indicate an instantaneous regeneration. Our bound will if free now.
But, just as a baby grows and develops, so we do for our continual justification and sanctification in Christ. Can we ever lose our salvation? Yes, I believe we can. Luke 8:13 regarding the seed of God's Word on four soils. The third soil says that "they believed for awhile, but when temptation came, they fell away".
But, admittedly, I am challenged by the Word that says, "He who began a good work in you, WILL complete it.
great questions, Orrin,
jeffh
What if I die right after I am instantly saved?
ReplyDeleteThat would be better than staying alive a long time because I might do something to "lose" my salvation. Or maybe I would get "saveder" if I stay alive longer and do more.
No. Saved must be instant. Obedience and learning and becoming sanctified must take time.
Sorry, no verses to back it up.
I believe (from scripture) that Salvation is instant.
ReplyDeleteThe thief on the cross.....
Matt 23:42-43
Here's a question... Where the miracles of healing that Christ performed kinda a picture or shadow of things to come of the "spiritual healing" that He was going to offer? If so, I don't believe that God would change his policy regarding the speed at which He heals people neither physically or spiritually.I forget the references, but things like Jesus said such as "Arise and walk" or "behold" (when he healed the blind), these examples tend to point to "Instantaneous Healing"
Just sayin...
When you're saved, or "born again" the "seed is planted"
Growing in Christ however is a continual process.
I Peter 2:2
In Christ,
Jordan
Jordan,
ReplyDeleteI never got an email form you. Did you try again or decide to drop it?
Shalom
Romans 8
ReplyDelete24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Matthew 24
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Bo, Does your last comment address "once-saved-always-saved", "eternal security", "can't lose your salvation"-type stuff instead of how fast a guy gets saved?
DeleteI guess I need someone to write a big long discourse to get me on the right course with this topic.
Maybe so. When I answered "Yes" to the question of instantly or a process, I was thinking that salvation is instantaneously begun, but not finished until we endure to the end. The thief on the cross did not have long to endure. Most of us do.
DeleteSo my scriptures above are kind of against the "eternal security" doctrine and also in explanation of an ongoing salvation process. To some degree sanctification is enduring to the end. If we ever say, "No, I will not obey you in that area." to YHWH we are rejecting His salvation also by rejecting His Lordship.
Hebrews 12
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Philippians 2
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
It is interesting that much of what YHWH calls holiness are concerning what we wear, what we eat, what holy days we celebrate, etc. Working out our own salvation seems to be becoming more obedient in the small things that place constraints upon us that make us peculiar to YHWH and strange to the world. We should not leave the small things undone.
Matthew 23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Luke 16
10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
Shalom
If we ever say, "No, I will not obey you in that area." to YHWH we are rejecting His salvation also by rejecting His Lordship...for we have stopped confessing Him as Lord at that point. I am not talking about a single statement that we might make in response to YHWH's instructions, but an ongoing attitude and track record of noncompliance.
DeleteShalom
Salvation is instantaneous.
ReplyDeleteRomans 10:9-13 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The theif on the cross was saved instantly, he did not have the opportunity to live a redemptive life. You could say that it would be beneficial to accept christ on your death bed, which it would be for the reason that every sin throughout your lifetime is gone. But how many peaple does this situation occur with?
What is the evidence that a man is saved? and from what are we saved?
ReplyDeleteEvidence
DeleteMatt 7
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Saved from the penalty of the offense of the law. Which is sin. And death.
Rom 5:12-15
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Jordan, Fruit is a good answer to what is the evidence of being saved. My answer would be similar-- a changed life. I am thinking of people who got healed and were told that their faith made them whole, get up and walk. they were physically changed so more people would put their faith in Y'shua. Also, to the thief, steal no more (Eph 4:28)
DeleteAlso.it satys to gt rid of lying, anger, and bitterness, etc.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
So--Some fruit is "auto-matic" and some is up to us to get rid of old man stuff and put on the new man.
Sometimes I think this is difficult for ones blessed to be raised in a believing home like I was and my children are and most of you were.
We must purpose to show that we love Him and to show the work He has done in us.
From What are we saved?
ReplyDeleteJordan, you say we are saved from the penalty of the law. You quote Paul and Romans, okay. Now lay down your club. No more wacking.
Do you really mean your answer is that we are saved from the law?
You were dead in your sin and that would have resulted in eternal separation from YHWH. HELL. But You believed "on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." just like the prison keeper in Acts 16:31
I just want you to realize the enemy here. The Law of YHWH is not your enemy. Sin, Death, Self, the Adversary -- those are enemies. You don't have to agree with me on everything, but here,,, you need to see it.
You must know your enemy. When the hackles lay down on the back of your neck, I am sure you read Psalm 19 and like it as much as I do.
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul..
God came to earth Mike.
DeleteWe memorized PS 19 among many others growing up and I never really listend to what it was saying. David was delighting in The Law of the Lord because it was a beautiful picture of how a perfect life should be lived.
Notice what else David Says though in Ps 51:16-17
"For thou desirest not sacrifice else would I give it: thou delightest not in burn offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."
Also anyone who is reading this.
Please read Romans 10:1-4
I know you guys don't really like Paul anymore but for me I like to think of it like Teddy,
"Speak softly and carry a big stick"
My stick is the Bible.
I hear some of you are also questioning the Deity of Jesus Christ.
THIS IS VERY CONCERNING FOR ME!
Please e-mail me at sendjomail@gmail.com
In Christ,
Jordan
Jordan
DeleteAll Romans 10:1-4 is saying is that our righteousness does not come from keeping the Torah. It comes from Elohim. If our righteousness came from keeping the Torah we would all be toast. Because all of us have fallen short of perfection. We need the righteousness of Elohim(who is Yeshua) to cover where we fall short. Shaul(Paul) is not saying our righteousness is from Elohim so we can do whatever we want. We are commanded to strive for perfection. Matt 5:48 Which as you pointed out above, a perfect life is a life that keeps the Torah of YHWH. All we that try to observe the Torah are saying is be ye perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.
For the record I like Shaul(Paul). And I believe that his writings are 100% inspired by the
Ruach HaChodesh(Holy Spirit)
I am not questioning the Diety of Yeshua either! He(Yeshua) is YHWH in the flesh! John 1:1
Go and sin no more. 1John3:4
Shalom
1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the Torah: for sin is the transgression of the Torah.
DeleteWhat was I so afraid of?
ReplyDeleteJoh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins.
{I didn't want to die in my sins, I knew I had sinned}
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
{I was scared of God and wanted to make peace with Him so He would not send me away to Hell}
Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
{I was convinced, but not til after I put my faith in Him}
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
{Now I have no doubt and I want to live every day solely for His benefit}
I was instantly saved. I felt real relief as sin-guilty eight year-old kid. I knew sin. I still know who the enemy is. He stalks me and offers me anything I want.
The thing that defeats that enemy is that the thing I want he cannot give.
I'm a staunch believer in predestination. Here are some scriptures that I believe support this view.
ReplyDeleteRom 8:29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Eph 1:5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Yeshua HaMashiach to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:11In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Acts13:48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of YHWH: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Romans9:11-24 also makes it pretty clear to me that we are predestined to either heaven or hell.
Shalom
Barrett, How come you have no Torah verses for this view?
DeleteThey are only Paul's teaching, including the one in Acts.
Michael
Should we adopt a doctrine that is separate from or not rooted in the Torah?
ReplyDeleteMike
ReplyDeleteThere are two reasons really.
1)Like the issue of women wearing head coverings, the NT spells it out so nicely.
2)Its a lot harder to argue with Shaul's understanding of the Tanakh than it is to argue with Barret's take on it.
For starters how about the Scriptures Shaul quoted himself.
Genesis25:23And the YHWH said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Malachi1:2I have loved you, saith YHWH. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esav Yaacov's brother? saith YHWH: yet I loved Yaacov,
3And I hated Esav, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Shaul understands these two passages to say that YHWH loved Yaacov and hated Esav when they were still in the womb. Before either of them had done good or evil.
He then quotes Exodus33:19
"And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of YHWH before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
Then he quotes Exodus 9:16
And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
Shaul interprets these verses to be saying that it is not our will or works that save us, just the mercy of Elohim. And that He shows that mercy to who He wants and He hardens who he wants.
In Romans 9:19 Shaul says what everyone is thinking. I've had this argument with a few people and this really is one of the first arguments they come up with. "If That is true," they say. "Then why does YHWH punish us for being evil if he created us to be evil? Shaul makes the argument that we do not even have the right to ask YHWH that question. Does the thing formed say to Him who formed it you can't make me that way! Of course not. Now, some people will still argue that YHWH does not make or create evil. I ask them what do they do with Isaiah45:7?
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the YHWH do all these things."
They also almost always say that there is no way that YHWH would not want everyone to be saved. What do they do with what our Mashiakh said in Matthew 13:10-15?
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Yeshayahu, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
What! Did Yeshua just say that he speaks to them in parables lest they convert and he heal them? Sounds that way to me.
Yes, everything we believe should be rooted in Torah. But like I said some things are easier to see than others. like head coverings for women.
Shalom
I like it, Barrett. I have a bigger reason for wanting you to support it with Torah here. Thanks. Someone abrogating Torah would not do so well as you did and would only have Shaul to quote/misunderstand.
ReplyDeleteOn predestination though, I am still a little bit Baptist, I like to say "we still have to choose" or walk in the door we are predestined to walk through. We can't let fear or disobedience to prevent our choie.
My only "complaint" is that you brought up another issue some won't like. :) Now you've done it.
My wife and I loved seeing the pictures of Devon with out a covering as an available young lady and then covered as if to say "I am taken". We are very happy for you. Shalom!
We can't let fear or disobedience prevent our CHOICE. Or being chosen.
DeleteMike
ReplyDeleteThanks. Devin and I are very happy! Is there anyway y'all will be able to make it to the wedding?
I know what you are saying about our choice. The only way I can get my head around it is to look at it like a book and its author. YHWH is the Author and we are the characters in his book. Now, from the characters point of view they have free will. A good person in the the book chose to be good. Likewise, an evil person in the book chose to be evil. But every decision made by every character in the book was dictated by the Author. So, from our point of view(inside the book)we have choice. But from YHWH's point of view(the Author)its all predestined. Does that make sense?
Shalom
Good analogy/comparison. YHWH is the Author and I trust Him.
ReplyDeleteI accept your view-it is a little different than mine but not by much. Others will read this and have an opinion.
Just for conversation... I was once in a conversation with an old friend talking about "religion". When I bought up Sabbath and Yah's dietary laws, etc He blurted out,"That stuff doesn't matter! Those are just "do's".
How far does predestination go? To the degree that some are predestined to eat kosher and believe and keep the Shabbat while others are "Free in Christ"? Are we/they predestined to that? Or is it only for salvation? What about Jonah and the whale? Is that a matter of predestination for Jonah or the Whale? Or was it for the people of Nineveh?
The Father knows what I will do today, but it will be to my glory as well as a praise to Him if I choose to overlook a matter and not sin in anger.
Is this predestination or what is it? :
Jer 31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
Promises, Prophecy and Predestination.
Mike
ReplyDeleteHow far does predestination go? Its my opinion that everything is predestined.
Lamentations3:37Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when YHWH commandeth it not?
38Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
I think this passage is pretty clear. And it is applying YHWH's sovereignty to all things that come to pass, not just salvation. Both good and evil. Also notice that it says it will not come to pass unless YHWH commands it. Some try to say that YHWH just allows evil to operate but that is not what this verse is saying. It is saying that He commands it.
Amos3:6Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and YHWH hath not done it?
Yes I believe that the life of Yonah was predestined. He was predestined to sin(trying to runaway from Elohim)so that YHWH could punish him, so that the Ninevites and the generation of Yeshua would have the Sign of Yonah. Luke11:29-30
Is Jer 31:8 a promise, prophecy or predestination? Why not all three?
Amen, Barrett.
Delete