The purpose of this blog is to give men who are, or will become the leaders in their homes, a way to build each other up and better become Bereans. Proverbs 27:17 says that "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend."
As we seek to sharpen each other , 2 Timothy 3:16 says," All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". Each time you post, please include at least two scriptures that clearly back up what you are trying to say. May God speak to each one of us and perfect us through His Word.
Sunday, September 11, 2011
The topic of the week
Romans 2; Jew or not? Circumcised or not? Law needed or not? What does it mean to be a Jew?
Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God
Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. The Holy Bible : King James
2 John 5-6 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. If we are told to follow the law in the old testament and also in the new testament, is it safe to assume that we are also supposed to follow it today? One of the laws was that we are to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16 says(16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.)If we are going to keep that law in the new Jerusalem Will we probably keep the others as well? I need to study it more though.
Those might or might not be my thoughts on circumcision, though I will not discount the health benefits. I just had to finish the verse. We can get into that topic later.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I have struggled over this subject myself, and I read through the New Testament and noted everything that Jesus said or quoted from the law, and I noticed that every one he mentioned were moral laws that we as followers should keep. Should we completely throw out what God told the Israelites not to eat or touch then? (Romans 3: 31) No, we can learn and examine it; before modern medicine was discovered the Hebrews were known for being some of the healthiest people in the world, this was because they followed the laws that they sometimes didn't understand. This is definitely not an issue of salvation though!
An interesting thought about the life of Jesus Christ is that to be our perfect sacrifice He had to live a spotless life. Whose standard was the spotlessness measured against? Later, Jesus commanded us to be perfect as He (the Father)is perfect. (Matthew 5:48) You hear alot about the Pharisee's accusing Jesus of being "unlawful." But He always proved them wrong. It's an interesting thought. Just remember. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
In Luke 14:1 the pharisees condemn Yeshua for healing on the Sabbath. Yeshua rebukes them not for keeping the Sabbath, but for their man made laws of how to keep the Sabbath. This shows that Yeshua wasn't against the Sabbath, but against the traditions of men(Talmud, Mishnah,etc.).
Read Galatians 2 : 15 - 21, Romans 7, 1 Timothy 1: 8 - 11, Hebrews 8, and there is so many more - the Bible nails this topic! Please do not dismiss these verses.
In Romans 7 : 4 - 6 " Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should were in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
So help me to understand the logic of this view of Romans 7:4 and the concept of being dead to the law. If today I am a sinner there are actions which are unlawful (sin) to me, but if I get saved they are no longer unlawful and I can do them with impunity. I don't think that we have a proper understanding of this passage to arrive at this conclusion. I think we are dead to three aspects of the law. It's capacity to stir up sin in us, it's capacity to produce irremediable guilt feelings in us, and it's penalties, punishments and curses. But we need to understand that to remove the law and commandments of the "old" testament we need to disregard a lot of the new testament as obedience to the law is viewed as very important. 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous; Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Did I write a conclusion? I believe I just wrote the verse. Reading your second statement I thought of Romans 6 : 1, it says " What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" We become dead to the law so we can be joined with Christ!
Good verse Mr. Barber. We are dead to the law. But wait a minute which law are we dead to. Is it the law of sin and death or is the law which deals with commandments, statues and ord. Because if you do away with the second option, then there is no need for this one you call Jesus. Because it is through his grace and mercy that we are saved. But, saved from what, our sins or our iniquities which abound in us as Paul says. Yes we need a savior because we are sinners and break his fathers law. 1 john 3.4 and Matt 7:21. Futhermore the law of sin and death is what was nailed to the stake, not the commandments. Romans 3:31 Paul says we do not make void the law through faith, but we establish it. The law is good, and profitable, for teaching, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness. Amen! SLance
I have often asked myself that question, thank you for that comment. Can you tell what the difference is between the law and the commandments from Scripture? I seriously want to know.
The real question here is, are we talking about "salvation" or "redemption?" Many of Paul's writings jump back and forth between these two issues and therein lies the confusion. Peter himself said that Pauls writings were easily misunderstood.(2 Peter 3:16) Lets look at one case in point. In Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas were having difficulties with some saved Pharisees in their churches. The Pharisees were claiming that the Gentile converts to be saved, needed to follow the entire law. Paul disagreed. They took their argument to Jerusalem and asked the apostles to settle it. James as the head apostle, gave this response,"We trouble not them which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto thsesem, that they abstain from pollution of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."(Acts 15:19-20) Now on the face, this looks like if we do these four things everything is fine. But lets take a look at the next verse."For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." These four issues were only mentioned as things which needed to be completely cleaned out of new believers lives immediately after salvation.(Remember the issue is salvation from the first verse of chapter 15) The rest of their walk or the process of redemption they would learn as they listened to Moses being read every sabbath. I have been studying the issue of covenant, and so far this has been my conclusion. Sorry for the length :) Shalom--Orrin
Thank You for your comment Orrin. Now Mr. Barber, we as believers in Messiah have to consider some possible changes that have been handed down from our fathers. First, we as believers have a hard time excepted the fact that we need to follow commandments, especially if they are rooted from the old testament, but have they ever changed from old to new. When the Acts 15 verses were quoted up above that is a classic example of Torah being preached to the new believers. I don't believe their is a concrete difference between commandments and law. The law does three things, it shows us what sin is, pronounces cursings and blessings. Commandments are just a segment of the law that is found to be instructions for us to live righteously. Yes I believe we can be right with God. So if you go to Rev 12:17 and read who is protected from the dragon, those that have the testimony of Messiah and Obey his commandments. The Law is not our salvation and can not save us, this is what pharisees thought and messiah corrected them. That is also what legalism is. We as servants to the king are to obey Yahweh's commands and they are not grievous. I not sure if this all makes since. The law is the big picture of all things. Such as spoke about the law of sin and death, this particular law is judgement for those that broke torah and did not repent. thanks slance
Sam Barber, I hope and pray you can see I am not trying to place you under some old testament bondage of keeping the old law, the law is good and profitable. Romans 7 even talks about the law of sin and death and law of God. There is a difference, even in Rev. 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Also to note I believe you have to become a grated in Israel to enter into the kingdom. Rev 21:12 Thanks and if you are serious about understanding more keep in touch. Shalom slance
I have to tell you I find great error in one of your comments, if you have to become grafted into the family of Israel to enter the kingdom, why didn't Jesus emphasize that more or at all! What happens to the believing Gentiles? Romans 10: 9 -13 says That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek; for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The Bible talks about us being Grafted into the Family of God (Tree of Life), but where in Scripture does it say you have to become an Israelite to enter the Kingdom of God? Please help me understand where you are coming from. God Bless, Sam Barber.
Jordan, Before we get into a discussion lets lay our foundation as far as we can agree. 1. Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.(John 3:16) 2. Jesus Christ and God are one.(1 John 5:7) 3. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8) 4. Nothing that is preached in the New Testament will contradict the Old Testament(Tanauch) (Acts 17:10-11) Do you agree with these points?
I am the new guy in the talk. hope you will accept a minnesotan.
Why does this discussion begin with the apostle Paul's writing instead of in the beginning. Foundational things are ignored. The reason is because you are churched. Did you learn the instructions (Torah) of the creator in church? or did you learn the Bible from the perspective of Paul's Epistles? It was probably from a point of the New with out the foundation of the "old" Testament (Tanak). Everything is confusing if this is the way it is done.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Notice: (1) hard to understand; (2)unlearned; (3) destruction.
If we read Romans in light of Paul's own clarifications we will come up with different picture than when we start with the traditional Christian view. Below are a few of Paul's definitive statements that basically tell us what he was never wanting us to get out of what he taught and one passage that gives us his definition of to what it means to be carnal minded. I will break this up into a few posts.
“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” (Rom. 7:7)
[YHWH’s law defines what is and is not sin. It cannot be wrong to do what it says to do. It has to be wrong when we fail to do what it says to do; because that would be sinning by Paul’s definition.]
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” (Rom. 6:1-2, 15)
[Since sin is defined by the Law, breaking or transgressing the Law is sin. Grace does not allow us to continue to transgress YHWH’s rules in His Torah. If we are truly dead to sin and alive to YHWH, we will stop sinning/transgressing the Law. Grace is supposed to empower us by giving us a new starting place…as if we had never sinned/transgressed YHWH’s law. Our past transgressions do not count against us; so we can go forward with confidence. Without grace, there is no eternal reason to keep the law since we have already broken it with no hope of ever being able to make it up. With grace, we can be assured that our efforts to obey YHWH will be rewarded…if we let no man beguile us out of our reward with their doctrines and commandments of men.]
“Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.” (Rom. 7:12, 14)
[The law is not a bad thing. How did we ever come up with the idea that something that was breathed by our loving Heavenly Father was other than spiritual, holy, righteous, just and good for us? We have bad ideas about it because of our carnal thinking.]
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom.8:6-8)
[When we do not want to do what the law says, we show that we are still carnal minded and that we are fighting against YHWH. If we renew our minds in the scripture and love YHWH’s instructions/Torah, we will begin to please YHWH by being obedient. Being subject to YHWH’s Torah is being spiritually minded. Rejecting His instructions in the Tanakh is indicative of a carnal mind.]
“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Rom. 3:31)
[Coming to faith does not exclude us from obeying YHWH’s instructions in His Torah; it empowers us to keep them because of grace. The law is established…it has a better foundation in our lives when we have repented for having broken it (sin), and received forgiveness. Now we can build with the gold, silver and precious stones of obedience instead of with the wood, hay and stubble of man’s ideas, traditions and philosophies that amount to disobedience.]
Being led by the Spirit to live a Christ like life when we realize that we cannot do ANYTHING to earn salvation is one thing. Being led by our own selves to say that we can somehow merrit or earn favor of God by following steps A , B and C is another thing altogether.
What is our strength ? Ourselves ? Or Christ within us ?
I assume that a "Christlike" life is a holy/sanctified life. We should be sanctified the way that our Messiah was and His apostles were. By living out the instructions in YHWH the Father's word. We are the ones that believe because of their word...aren't we?
“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;” (John 17:17, 19-20)
The Father and the Son are one. They do not have conflicting commandments. The Spirit will not lead us to break YHWH's law or ignore it. He reminds us of YHWH's words.
“I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30)
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you." (John 16:13-15)
He will not speak of Himself. HE is the Spirit of truth...The Father's word is the truth that the Son is speaking of. He will say the same things that the Father and Son say. The Son said:
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mat. 5:19)
Obedience to YHWH's instructions is not about obtaining salvation. It is about being faithful to the one that saved us. It brings great reward.
"And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." (Luke 4:4)
Are we men? Do we live by every word of YHWH or just the ones that we like? Of just the ones that our church likes? Of just the ones that make sense to us or our culture? Every word means every word. The only words available at the time of Y'shua quoting this was what we call the "Old testament." It doesn's say that Jews should live by every word of YHWH...it says mankind should. Not to gain salvation, but because we are saved.
Y'shua didn't keep His Fathers word to become righteous. He kept it because He was righteous. The same should be the case with us. Are we really righteous if we do not do righteousness?
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:4-7"
Continuing to transgress the law of YHWH proves that we are not righteous. It proves that we are deceived.
4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a NEW COVENANT, NOT of the LETTER but of the SPIRIT; for the letter KILLS, but the Spirit GIVES LIFE. 7 But if the ministry of death, in R99 letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. 12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer. 31:31-33)
Now do not forget that the NEW COVENANT writes the same law of YHWH on our hearts that was written on stone. The law does not change...until heaven and earth pass away...at least according to Messiah. (Mat. 5:17-19) Also, do not forget that the NEW COVENANT is made with ISRAEL. We must be grafted/adopted into Israel to partake of this covenant with YHWH. We are no longer gentiles.
"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;" (Eph. 2:11-13,19)
We WERE strangers to the covenants of promise, but now we ARE no more strangers. We have joined the commonwealth of Israel so that we can be partakers of YHWH's covenants.
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:2-3)
"when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it? But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil." (Deut. 30:10-15)
His law is not too hard for us if we allow it to be written on our hearts. YHWH's sets life and good before us. Will we continue to reject His commandments that prove that we love Him or turn to Him with all our hearts. The Spirit does give life, by causing us to love YHWH's law and by empowering us to keep it. The letter can only condemn us for not keeping YHWH's law. Having His law written on our hearts means that we love it and want to do it. If we do not want to do it, we have carnal minds.
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom.8:6-8)
The Spirit does give life, by causing us to love YHWH's law and by empowering us to keep it. The letter can only condemn us for not keeping YHWH's law. Having His law written on our hearts means that we love it and want to do it. If we do not want to do it, we have carnal minds.
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom.8:6-8)
Do you know YHWH's Torah and want to do it? Is your mind subject to the law? If not...OUCH!
Hello Orrin! Tyler told me to check out your new blog. I am so thrilled to hear about all the changes happening in your family and your desire and hunger for Truth. You obviously are asking the right questions and trying to find the right answers. 2Timothy 2:15 Do your utmost to present yourself approved to Elohim, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly handling the Word of Truth. I will keep you and your family in my prayers, praying for wisdom and strength to stand for Truth and be diligent in your pursuit of it.
I am sorry if the above sounds harsh. That is not my intention. I just mean to show that we should study the Scriptures that Peter and Paul referred to. Now what did they call the scriptures? If we are to be learned and stable, let us study what they studied. The Tanak is the Instruction, Prophets, and Writings (Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim =TNK "TaNaK"). I like that better than the Old Testament. Old sounds like "out of date and replaced". I can't say that if it is not "old". The Tanak is where we get learning and stability to keep from the error of the wicked (lawless) and from falling away. You guys have a good discussion going. I deeply love the Torah and the Commands found therein.
Comment on Bo's 2:56 pm post today. I so often here Christians say that the old testament laws were there to prove that no one could obey them all and be righteous, and therefor the pupose of the Law was to show the people their need for a savior, once He came there was no longer a need to keep the laws of the old testament. (I believed that lie myself for so long but PRAISE YHWH my eyes have been opened and I can see clearly now). Here is a scripture verse I want to share with all reading that sheds some light on how false that belief is. Luk 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herodes, the sovereign of Yehuḏah, a certain priest named Zeḵaryah, of the division of Aḇiyah. And his wife was of the daughters of Aharon, and her name was Elisheḇa. And they were both righteous before Elohim, blamelessly walking in ALL the commands and righteousnesses of YHWH. Taken from The Scriptures. (version I prefer to use).
You are right Bo, "His law is not too hard for us if we allow it to be written on our hearts. YHWH's sets life and good before us. Will we continue to reject His commandments that prove that we love Him or turn to Him with all our hearts. The Spirit does give life, by causing us to love YHWH's law and by empowering us to keep it." (I thought it was worth repeating). I have seen this play out in my life. When I believed that I could never be righteous and live free of sin, I was caught in a cycle of sin, repent, sin, repent...and I felt far from The LORD, ashamed and sick, eventhough, "I believed" on the LORD Jesus Christ and "loved" HIM. If that was all I needed to do to be saved why did I constantly struggle with sin and constantly during that time feel such a heavy hand of conviction. I was bond to the law of sin and death until I saw clearly my need not just for a savior but my need to obey all of HIS commandments, and walk righteously. I was only set free by TRUTH, the TRUTH found in YHWH's WORD (ALL of IT). I know I am not walking perfectly righteously yet, because I have just begun to study Torah, I have much to learn. But I finally know what GRACE truly is, I finally feel free from sin. His Grace is sufficient to help us when we are tempted, so that we have the power by the gift of the Holy Spirit not to sin but to choose the way out that YHWH always gives us when we tempted. And The Law is there to show us what sin is, so that we are not ignorant to HIS will. The Laws are a Loving Fathers instructions to HIS beloved children. His Laws are for our good. We are blessed by them if we understand them and obey. Psalm 119:1 Blessed are the perfect in the way, who walk in the Torah of YHWH.
Just out of curiosity , do you guys believe that all of Pauls writings are the inspired word or God ? If not then is a lot of the new testament incorrect ?
Along with what MinnesotaMike said (Hi Mike!) here is a quote taken from Brad Scott's Teaching "Words of Elohiyim" found on his website (wildbranch.org):
The terms that we read in the New Testament were not created in a vacuum. Virtually every word or words that you read have their beginning and defining in the Tanakh. When Yeshua‘ or any of the writers wrote their words, they did so with full confidence that the readers were already familiar with the words they chose to convey ’Elohiym's ways. When Yeshua‘ said, "Be not afraid, only believe", He used a term already well established in the Tanakh as to it's meaning. The word 'believe' did not pop up from nowhere in the New Testament! He assumed a previous knowledge of this word. When He uses the terms; kingdom, life, light, righteousness, way, truth, receive, bind, loose, come together, or worship, for example, He assumes we know what these things mean from our knowledge of His previous words.
We need to use the TaNaK writings to define words and concepts in the New Testament. It is a mistake to use how our modern western culture defines words and concepts when trying to make sense of what Messiah was saying, what He was truly teaching. Without an understanding of the TaNaK, and the hebrew culture at that time and their knowledge base of the TaNaK, we cannot truly understand the New Testament.
Orrin- as far as the question Law needed or not? Just read Psalm 19. Sums it up. Who can argue with that. I for one need the Law. I am a hopeless wreck without it.
Jordan, the answer to your question is yes, Paul's writings are inspired. 1 Timothy 3:16 says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
But having said that, do you believe in the inerrancy of scripture. If the Bible is inerrant, and I believe that it is, then if we read it in such a way that it is in conflict with itself, such as setting the Old Testament against the New Testament, then I believe that we have an improper understanding of the Bible. As a student of Gamaliel, Paul had the entire Tanakh committed to memory. So we can assume that when he used a word or phrase in his writings that we find in the Old Testament it probably should be considered to have the same or similar meaning.
Following the Torah does not save us, but I would like to know what part or parts of what God said is good in His word that you do not want to do.
So was it just Pauls own personal comments or reflections of the Tanakh on what was revealed to him? or was EVERY WORD inspired by God in the very moment he was writing it?
Is it safe to say that the Hebraic Roots Movement leads people to doubt Pauls writings? I would ask why? Does Paul say some things that are controversial?
It is not as easy as saying yes or no. I for one, believe that Paul was a wise man inspired by the Holy SPirit and his writings are commentaries. They are not incorrect, but they have been misinterpreted often. And much has been lost in meaning due to improper translation and false teaching. When understood properly they do not contradict the Truth of the Old Testament (or TaNaK) writings.
Well, I for one don't know about the Hebraic roots movement. I am not part of that. I am just reading scriptures, praying for Holy Spirit to give me wisdom as I do, and I dedicated to reading it with new eyes, not with everything that was taught to me by mainstream christianity blurring my vision. I am not looking for any Hebrew Roots, just roots of TRUTH.
I think the Church relys to heavily on their misinterpretations of Paul's letters. And they Follow it. I don't follow one man. Paul is not my God. I am a lot more concerned with what Messiah taught.
Most teachings I have found as I have begun studying Torah, do not lead anyone to doubt Pauls writings, they break them down, explain them and clarify them. I have come to a better understanding of Pauls' letters. Not to Doubt them. I think Jordan, you are clumping some of us up into an assumption that we are part of the Hebrew Roots Movement, but we are not. We are just people who are studying the WORD with a desire to understand the times, culture, language, it was written in, to gain a clearer understanding of it. If any part of the Word seems to contradict any other part of the WOrd than it is clearly not being interpreted or understood right. The LORD would not contradict HIMSELf, The SOn would not contradict the Father and the HOly SPirit would Not contradict the Father. And if The LORD never changes, and TRUTH is absolute, then what The Father said was Truth Once is Always Truth.
Orrin- I know you asked that everything be backed up by 2 verses. I am sleepy so, I will find verses tomorrow to back up everything I expressed tonight. Jordan if your interested I recommend watching some 119 Ministry videos. Pauline Paradox is a good one. It explains Paul's letters, not leading to doubt but leading to greater understanding. can find them on testeverything.net
I think that all of Paul's writings are true. They are scripture. They are inspired. They do not contradict Torah. If they did they would not be scripture.
Isaiah 8 20 To the law and to the testimony (10 commandments): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Of course, I think that James, Peter, John, Luke, Matthew, Mark and Jude are all scripture too. I have found that anything that I think is a contradiction is not when studied out and the details paid close attention to.
Sid, are the "Good" things you are talking about of FAITH? The law is good for bringing us to knowledge of sin, BUT FOLLOWING OF THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.
Romans 8 basically the whole chapter and Galatians 3:12. In Romans a distinction is made between the "Law of the Flesh" and the "Law of the Spirit".
I find it interesting that this WHOLE discussion can be summed up in ACTS 15. This is the same issue that the early church was facing. What is the verdict in this chapter?
Is it really summed up there? Acts 15:19-20 says "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Is that really all that is required? Am I then free to murder? or to steal at will?
In three different situations Jesus gave three different responses. To the woman caught in adultery after saying let he who is without sin cast the first stone, he told her that he did not condemn her but to stop the way she was living. To Nicodemus he said, "You must be born again." To Nicodemus education was a stronghold and this caught him off guard as he could not understand how this could be effected. To the rich young ruler he said "Sell all that thou hast and give to the poor." He had much goods and could not give it up and so walked away. Do you think that any one of these responses or the four in Acts 15:19 is a stand alone recipe for salvation?
God wants to be first in our lives. Look up what Jesus said what was the greatest commandment. He quoted right out of Deut. 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (Oops, Old Testament, doesn't apply)
But back to Acts 15, if you look at the next verse (21) you see that what Paul had said in the two preceding verses apparently hit these people right where they were living and if they chose to follow Christ verse 21 says "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."
They would learn the rest of the law as they were taught weekly inthe synagogue.
Let me say once again that we can by no means gain salvation by our works. But James says that faith without works is dead, and in another place in the Bible it says "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Use a little logic there and see where it leads.
I think Paul gets to the crux of the matter in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
What do we desire to build with?
And the passage that probably gives me the greatest pause is Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
"Ye that work iniquity" is from the Greek "Lawbreakers." These people were not trying to bluff their way into heaven. They thought that they had it made. But whether they "gained the whole world but lost their soul," (could Biblically justify all the fun that the world has to offer) or had been mislead by incorrect teaching form their childhood or whatever else may have been the issue, God sent them away. Scary, huh?
This issue is very serious. Are we living for the flesh? We will of the flesh reap corruption. Are we living for God? He will reward us with eternal life.
Jordan, do Paul's writings teach you to obey everything commanded in the Torah? If yes, then they are inspired. The inspiration is hard to prove. The proof is in the fruit that is produced.
Are you afraid to let go of all your security? We don't hate Paul. We are obviously very acquainted with his writings. We are just firmly convinced that if he is right then he will not tear down the established rule of God's word. So we look for his words to be in harmony with the breadth of Scripture. That is a good test for all Bible Study.
Paul never would oppose what Sid and Bo and Andrea are "pushing". Namely Obedience to the Law.
My answer to your question is going to be no for a different reason. Peter and Paul did not think what they wrote was on the scale of Scripture! 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Tim 3:16
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Paul did not tell Tim to follow his teachings but the Scripture (TaNaK).
I want to tell you there are two kinds of laws that might be referred to in the writings of Paul. (1) is the Holy, perfect law of liberty spoken of by James and others; (2) the list of endless rules added by Pharisees and others trying to control religion and politics and people and even God.
Now, either Paul loves YHWH and His written Torah or he does not. He is not a psychotic lunatic.
Look at Gal 2:23. What in the world! Does this mean that YHWH shut people in a corner with no hope? Can that be?
It cannot be, so we must try for a different interpretation.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
How do you faithfully read "but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." in the above?
Here is mine--> Doing the law apart from faith is death. Doing the law in faith is life.
As to the second kind of law I referred to... stuff that shuts people in with no hope. Many things were added to the Torah by Jews in the Talmud like never eating meat and milk. I don't ascribe to that. But did you know that the Torah forbids incest? Teaches tithing? Respect for elders? Faithfulness in the marriage bed? I think there is Life in the Torah. Please read it.
Don't be like Jannes and Jambre. 2Ti_3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
You do not have to do anything to be "saved". But how then shall you live? I say embrace Moses and fill up the teaching of the Law with the Teaching of Y'shua as in the Sermon on the Mount Mat 5-7. You agree with that if you quote Acts 15. Do those basic things having to do with idol worship and then go to the synagog to learn what Moses says.I think that is what Sid says, too.
Again, if Paul can be seen as scriptural, He must agree with the breadth of Scripture. He kept Torah, He taught others to do likewise. He is great in the Kingdom.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I will be called great in the kingdom,too. I am doing them and teaching them. That does not save me. Sound arrogant? No, just true. According to this verse what will you be called?
I say to all: Stop your idolatry and read the Torah on the Sabbath. That sums up Acts 15.
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
I am very thankful that the whole Bible is preserved for us from Genesis to Revelation. So now we can study it. Thanks to YHWH and all the hard working faithful men who have lived and died for the Bible.
Let us do our best to do our duty to our heavenly Father and our families, neighbors and all those who will live after we are gone to study it diligently and pass it on to the next generation.
Orrin, I recognize the purpose of your blog. Be Bereans!
I noticed in my posts I have some letters in words capitalized and some not, that was not intentional, I just type to quickly. I decided I will not be posting comments, just reading through what you men are writing and I will pray for wisdom to be shared on this site, I am sure that is Orrins intentions for it. I pray TRUTH will shine forth. I believe that women have a place in the body of believers that is important, but it is not to be part of scriptural discussions and debates in the assembly. (1 Cor. 14:34-35) I realized last night that this site is in a way an assembly of brothers, albeit an online assembly, it still constitutes an assembly. I am thankful for you men that love the Creator and HIS word and are dedicated to teaching others. I hope this site makes a difference in the lives of those who truly want to know The Creator intimately and walk in HIS ways. Hear and obey. James 1:16-25 Do not go astray, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of turning. Having purposed it, He brought us forth by the Word of truth, for us to be a kind of first-fruits of His creatures. So then, my beloved brothers, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath, for the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of Elohim. Therefore put away all filthiness and overflow of evil, and receive with meekness the implanted Word,1 which is able to save your lives. And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Because if anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror, for he looks at himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what he was like. But he that looked into the perfect Torah, that of freedom,1 and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing of the Torah.
By the way, I was not saying that I did not believe Paul's writings were not scripture. I do believe they are scriptures. I belive he was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and therefor his writings are. I meant commentaries, only meaning they are his comments, letters, making it different then say the writings on the tablets that were written by the hand of YHWH (THE LORD).
Philippians 3 17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
So...how did Paul walk? Who are the enemies of the cross of Messiah? We will see.
Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
You mentioned Romans 8 as a passage that proves your point. Let us look at the a few verses in Romans 8.
Romans 8 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[There is condemnation if we do not walk in the Spirit.]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[The law if sin and death is: the soul that sinneth it shall die. (Eze.18:20) How does the law of the Spirit of life free us from this? By keeping us from sinning. What is sin? Transgression of the law.(Rom.7:7;1 John3:2)]
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[The Torah cannot stop us from sinning because our flesh is weak. The Torah is perfect. It tells us what things are sin and what things are righteous. It tells us how to be holy and what things defile us. Messiah's death gave us a fresh start by wiping out our past sins.(Rom.3:25)]
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[The righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us is us doing what the law says. Messiah's sacrifice frees us from sin not to sin. If we continue to sin (transgress the law) we are walking in the flesh not walking in the Spirit.]
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[How do we know if we are after the flesh? Next verse.]
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[If we are carnally minded we are after the flesh. What is a carnal mind? Next verse.]
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[The carnal mind is one that refuses to be subject to YHWH's Torah. It is at war with YHWH and His instructions. This person cannot keep the law. The Spirit led man does fulfill/keep the law according to verse 4 above.]
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[Those that are in the flesh have carnal minds that fight tooth and nail against the idea of keeping YHWH's law. The cannot please YHWH. Those that are truly being led by the Spirit keep His Torah and are pleasing children to Him. Do we want to continue to be children of disobedience?
Ephesians 5 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Let no man deceive you. He that doeth righteousness is righteous. He that transgresseth the law/sinneth is of the devil. Do not deceive yourself. Do not just be a hearer of the word.
1 John 3 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
James 1 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Who are the enemies of the cross of Messiah? Those that continue in sin/transgression of the law and that teach others to continue to break it. The devil sinneth/trasgresseth the law from the beginning. We are his children if we continue in our transgression of YHWH's law. Messiah came to put a stop to sin/transgression of YHWH's law. If we truly abide in him, His Spirit will empower us to keep YHWH's law. He that abideth in Him sinneth not. He that transgresseth the law, hath not seen Him and does not know Him.
Please note that the "eth" ending in the KJV denotes continuous action. One who sins is different than one who sinneth. He that sinneth is one that continues to transgress the law. When we transgress the law and repent from it, we do not sinneth.
Paul wrote Romans 8 to believers. John wrote 1 John to believers. James wrote James to believers. They did not want believers to be deceived into having faith without works or in thinking that disobedience to YHWH's law was acceptable for believers. How does a believer deal with the scriptures that I posted?
The words that the apostles wrote about believers being deceived should be taken seriously. The demons are believers...but what good does it do without obedience to the scripture?
James 2 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
There are four major options that explain disobedience to the Torah.
1) The person is not a true believer.
2) The believer is rebelling against YHWH's authority in his life.
3) The believer is deceived into thinking that he does not need to obey YHWH's commandments.
4) The believer is ignorant of what the Torah says.
If we are participants in the New Covenant we are to have YHWH's law written on our hearts and minds. In practical terms this means that we love His law and we know His law. It is not some automatic or magic thing that is perpetrated upon us. We must be willing and diligent. Ignorance of what YHWH commands is only acceptable for the amount of time it takes to learn His law. Deception is only an excuse until we have been shown the passages that show our deception. Rebellion is never acceptable.
Being carnal minded is curable. Being deceived is difficult to realize...that is why it is called deception...it tricks us. Once we have been shown the deception, we need to repent and start being doers of the word, or we will fall back into deception...and ultimately rebellion. And faith without works is dead. It cannot save us.
James 2 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
You may be a true hearted believer. You may be a young believer. You may be an ignorant believer. You may even be a deceived believer. All these may be saved in the end, but rebellious believers are unfaithful believers and they are cast out of the kingdom.
"So, after reading these comments, I feel the need to ask - if we say we are believers and are not following the laws and commandments from the Torah(as you say you are doing) are we not truly belivers? Thank you, Grace "
Grace,
It would be good if you stop writing things that you then remove all the time. Let your yea be yea and your nay, nay. Get a hold of your emotions and stand to what you say.
Correct me if im wrong but the law that is written on our hearts is not that law given in the old testament but that which we all experience through our consciences which Jesus brought to us while he was among us. The law that Jesus presented deals with things of the Spirit and superceeds the law given by Moses which deals with things of the flesh. I apologize but i dont have my Bible with me currently but I know this to be true from scripture.
I am correcting you. Here is the New Covenant passage:
Jeremiah 31 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Nothing in the passage above says that YHWH's law is somehow different than it always was. What He calls His law is His law. It cannot change until heaven and earth pass away.
Matthew 5 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Bo. As my wife GRACE and I read through this blog and seek to grow in our current walks with Christ we both have realized that we write things every once in a while that may not come across as lovingand concerned for those of us that are strugling. I would really appreciate an apology to my wife.
Just jumping in late. If that is ok, could I comment on Jer. 31? Hermenuetically, there are two covenants in the OT. The Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic covenant. If you read this text closely, esp in Hebrew, you will see that the one the Israelites broke was the Mosaic Covenant (e.g. 10 commandments, etc) which was bi-lateral OR two-way. When Yahweh says He will put the Covenant upon their hearts, that is the Abrahamic Covenant and the word new in Hebrew means "renewed" which means all of what it was plus more. This Covenant is and always was Unilateral or ONE way. Check Gen. 15 for that: God walked between the cut meat when? When Abram was asleep. One way. When you read Christ back into this Covenant, scripture fits together really well. Whenever Israel failed, Moses would say to Yahweh, "remember your Covenant, etc." This was the Abrahamic Covenant. Because Israel was unable to keep the Mosaic laws they were condemned. That is why they needed the Abrahamic Covenant to save them: Genesis 12:1-3 jeffh
Jan 5, 8:43 AM, Bo writes, "Those that are truly being led by the Spirit keep His Torah and are pleasing children to Him."
My response, "I half agree, but since this is a foundational tenet of Christianity - i.e. being Spirit led - it is worth cleaning up a bit or it can lead to the exact opposite conclusion that I believe Bo is honestly trying to do. Respectfully, I would say it like this, "Those that are truly being led by the Spirit are in Christ who kept the Torah or Law FOR US and are pleasing children to Him because of Christ, We ALL fail miserably at keeping the law, which is why Christ came. He lived the law in our place and died our death in our place (substitutionary atonement). We follow the law as a result NOT as a means to be less condemned by God. There is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ. The law shows us our failure and always drives us to Christ to continually receive His grace and forgiveness. That is where our power to live a godly life and delight in His law comes from. John 3:18, "we were already condemned by the law, Christ came to save us by fulfilling it for us, so God is only pleased with us because He is pleased with Christ. jeffh jeffh
From Jan 4 - 11:45 PM, Sid writes, "Is it really summed up there? Acts 15:19-20 says "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Is that really all that is required? Am I then free to murder? or to steal at will?
My response, "Again, I would challenge the question as misleading. When he asks, 'am I free to murder?' misses the whole point of the context of Acts 15. If you read earlier they are taking up the question of whether Gentiles who are coming to believe in Christ are required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. This is NOT referring to the laws written on our hearts (Jer 31), which include murder. When the Jews heard the phrase, "circumcision and the law of Moses" they would have heard all the Messianic prophecy with that. That is why, in verses 16-18, James calls up that as a fulfillment of prophecy by the Messiah. This was fairly new to them because in the days of Amos, the Israelites saw the Messiah as "yet to come", but the apostles here now see the Messiah as Jesus "has come". So, once the actual fulfillment of the prophecy has arrived, then the external observances begin to fall off. All that remains is the internal law which is a higher law in Christ. This helps make contextual sense out of Acts 15:19-20. Notice that what was very important to the believers in Messiah BEFORE he came so they could understand DID NOT include things like keeping Saturday as Sabbath or feasts. Those were necessary because Messiah had not come. The content is still necessary (in our hearts, Christ), so now we see the Sabbath as Christ and worship Him EVERY DAY, not just one day a week. And we do this FOREVER, which lines up perfectly with the Old Testament. This is why I would support what Sid is saying except that I would caution the mixing of the One way Covenant of remembering Christ in our hearts and the higher laws with the ceremonial and external laws like certain days and feasts (Col 2) which were meant to show us the eternal Christ, not the other way around. Torah leads to Christ, not Christ leads to Torah. Yeshua bless you, jeffh
Please know that I meant no offense. I spoke as a brother and an elder.
The fact remains that writing something and then removing it is not showing honor and politeness to the others on this blog. If you think that you have written something that you shouldn't have, apologize for it...but leave the comment up so that we do not have to explain what we were answering. Please be considerate when you write so that you will not have to apologize so much. If you make a mistake, fix it. It comes across as prideful or immature if you are constantly removing posts. It looks like you are not being slow to speak and quick to hear. It looks like an emotional response.
Jordan, if you allow your wife the liberty to post when you are not present to oversee her, you need to allow her to be reprimanded for her offenses. If you want to absolve her of the things she says or vows on the day that you hear of it, that is in accordance with the scripture. It is not in accordance with the scripture for you to take up another's offense. As Grace's head, are you going to apologize for her or have her apologize for her lack of consideration?
We have taken up enough time on this excursion. Please forgive us, everybody.
We should be patient with each others mistakes. Do not try to cover you sins...confess them.
Proverbs 28 13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
So what are you thinking Jordan? After reading all this is it beginning to tie together? I have not studied it as much, so everything from both sides has been enlightening. Just remember it's a lifelong journey.
I must take issue with your proposal that the some how Jeremiah is switching gears in the middle of his discussion of the New Covenant. He is speaking of YHWH's law, not the covenant with Abraham. We all know what law that meant to Jeremiah. We know what that meant to Messiah. We know what that meant to Paul.
The same law that Israel, and us for that matter, have broken is supposed to be written on our hearts. That is idiomatic language for us loving it. The transformed spirit that comes at conversion causes us to say, "what soever YHWH says, that I will do."(Exo.19:8) We commit before we know everything that he commands. We trust Him.
The problem arises when we are convinced by the doctrines of men that YHWH's law is now void. Paul disagrees with this doctrine. So does Y'shua.
Romans 3 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Titus 1 14 Not giving heed to...commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
John 17 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Mark 7 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men... 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition... 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Matthew 5 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
If what you say is true, Paul should have stopped keeping the law. He didn't.
Acts 21 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Acts 25 8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Bo, all those verses are fine if your starting point is on. That is all I am saying. I respectfully disagree with your starting point. I would encourage you to read Hebrews; esp chapter 8. There is clearly two covenants, one is Moses (led them out of Egypt) in verse 9, which is quoting Jer 31 and then we have a new covenant fulfilled in Christ which is repeated throughout the Old Testament, so it had to have a beginning before the New Testament. Plus it was superior to Moses. Also check the context - Heb 6:13 through 7:22 - I hope you'll admit that is about Christ, a better covenant, not Moses. jeffh
I know that there is a new covenant, but the law of YHWH is the law of YHWH. In the first covenant His law was written on stone. In the New Covenant it is to be written on our hearts. The writer of Hebrews states that YHWH found fault with "them"...the people, not with His law which is perfect. The new covenant allows us direct access to YHWH's Spirit instead of having to have priests teach us what it says. The law does not change until heaven and earth pass away. The place that it is written changes.
The law written on our hearts and personal access to YHWH was offered to Israel and they refused to continue to listen for themselves, thus relinquishing their priesthood.
Exodus 19 3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. 7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. 9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
The levitical system was then established, by their request, so that they could learn YHWH's law which they did not want to hear directly from YHWH.
Deuteronomy 5 23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders; 24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth. 25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die. 26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it. 28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken. 29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! 30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
O that there was a heart in US that WE would obey YHWH's commandments always. That is what the New Covenant is supposed to accomplish. So it was prophesied that YHWH would raise up a prophet/Messiah that would reestablish the priesthood of the believer.
Deuteronomy 18 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
The same gospel of being YHWH's priests and ruling with Him that was offered to them is now offered to us.
Hebrews 3 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
1 Peter 2 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
Revelation 5 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
We can continue to stumble at the word and be disobedient because we have not mixed what we have heard with faith or we can accept the gospel of the kingdom and start learning and obeying YHWH's law.
We are supposed to believe Moses forever. (Exo.19:9) Moses wrote down YHWH's law for us so we have no excuse for not knowing it and doing it. If we continue to neglect YHWH's law we will lose our priesthood also. If we continue to disobey we will lose our kingship.
Hosea 4 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
1 Samuel 15 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
We agree on the law. The law is the law. What you are not understanding (or not agreeing with) is the importance of the Abrhamic Covenant and how it relates to Christ. Jesus said at the Last Supper, this is the new covenant, etc..... Remember Me....... What is this pointing to? Jer 31 and on and on back to the Abrahamic covenant (which is really rooted from the entrance of sin in Gen 3:15 - later on that). So, we agree on ALL the verses you quoted about the Law judging and condemning us, but it is the ROLE of the law that we part. Even Rabbi Messer agrees with me, that the law does not justify. The way you are using the law (and I respect your intentions) is that it is superior to Christ. I am saying just the opposite. The Torah, Mosaic covenant, etc. condemns us; always because it fails to save us. So, where you would lead me back to the law to try harder, I would lead you straight to the cross where you depend and trust in the New Covenant OR renewed Covenant because it was Christ all along. The approach you are taking starts with Christ and has us try to fulfill the law or Torah; the approach I am taking starts with the law or Torah and is fulfilled by Christ FOR US. So, for your comments about losing our priesthood. Well, we are only priests because of what Christ did through the law; so again, the law does it's job in showing us our sin and falling short, but if you don't get to Christ and the cross from there you can only go back to the law and try to be justified by trying harder "this time". Finally, then I'll pause.... We need to start with the two covenants and agree there or we aren't going to get very far. Do you see two covenants? jeffh
To answer Orrin's question. What does it mean to be a Jew?
Scripture obviously points to the Jews as the Chosen people of God. They are the group that He made covenants with and they are the people to whom He gives things first that they might share it and be bearers of it to the rest of the world.
Romans 2:16 KJV
Story's about covenants? Matt 28:26 - Talks about the new one.
Who wrote this passage? What are your thoughts? Heb 8:6-13
6. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away
This is a great resource to learn more about this all. Its about 1 hr but it's worth it.
Greetings Jordan and all, I am excited to see so many young men and some old (jeff) quoting and studying the scriptures. Jordan I am blessed you are in the word and I remember the day we were playing football in the backyard and now you are a man of God encouraging others.
First, the covenants were not given to the Jews they were given to Israelites. Secondly there is no Matt. 28:26. Lastly, most people believe that Hebrews were written by the apostle Paul. Paul quotes alot of the old testament, such as this passage which comes from Jer. 31:31. Which is not a abrahamic covenant, but a Torah covenant. Read, his Torah in our heart it says. Yahweh has had only one Torah, not two or three. Every covenant has been built on the next.
A verse I quoted to my family this week that is so misquoted. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou has rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the torah (law) of thy God, I will also forget the children. Hosea 4:6
Knowledge comes from the word or Torah. Proverbs says seek wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Proverbs 4:5 Do you remember when your dad had the proverbs for cash program in your home. Well, I just think of all those verses you memorized.
Proverbs 3:1-2 "My son forget not my law, but let thine heart keep my commandments. For length of days and long life and peace shall they add to they." Blessing to you Jordan and Grace. your long friend shannon Lance
Hey Jordan, I wanted to comment on your post for the reason that I have heard several people use that particular passage and I believe they are pulling it out of context. I had the great opportunity to study that passage with some friends recently and we wanted to find the beginning and the end of Paul's train of thought, and it begins at chapter 8 and continues through the end of 10. I wanted to throw you some verses but you have to read and study all three chapters to gain an understanding of what Paul is trying to convey. It is very helpful when you realize that he is referring to the blood sacrifices and priestly duties throughout those chapters as being fulfilled.
Jeff, I will think out loud for a bit... The role of the Torah and the role of the Messiah...
Do they both share the same purpose ..namely to put us in right relationship with the Creator?
If I see Y'shua as the living Torah, what conclusions can I draw?
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
How do you faithfully read "but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." in the above?
Here is mine--> Doing the law apart from faith is death. Doing the law in faith is life.
Legalistically observing torah commands is worthless if you are trying to gain justification.
Faithfully doing them, tho, is life!
Y'shua is the way, the Truth and the Life, and the Torah is Life.
Shannon: Explain what you mean about the covenants are given to Israelites, not Jews. Most folks think they are the same thing.
Did YHWH ever make a cov with Jews only? Davidic, maybe because he was a jew.
For all you guys ... how many covenants are there? Is it always stated "YHWH says I will make my cov with "----". Is it always a new temporary covenant or same just renewed each time? Adam, Noah ( Gen 6:18), Abraham(Gen 17:2),Isaac(17;21), isrealites(Ex 6:4) David, Messiah...
"my covenant" What is that? I searched e-sword and got 72 verses. I can't list them all but I ask you to look for them.
Orrin, did any one say what it means to be a Jew?
That means you are from one of the 12 tribes of israel...the tribe of Judah. But Paul says in Rom 2:28 " For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly;..." It is a matter of the spirit or the heart. That does not mean people have to become jews but both jew and gentile have the matter of the heart that I think Mr. Bo speaks so Eloquently about.
If we return to YHWH with our whole heart and soul in keeping His commandments, He will circumcise our hearts and the hearts of our children.
Deuteronomy 30 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Please note that the outcome of having a new heart and new spirit is us keeping His Torah.
Ezekiel 11 19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: 20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 36 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
The promise of us being YHWH's children and He being our Elohim and Father is conditional. We must apply ourselves to holiness and obedience.
2 Corinthians 6 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
We may not continue to walk in our detestable ways and continue to participate in uncleanness. If our heart is soft instead of stony, we love YHWH's law and put into practice in our lives. If our heart is circumcised we will keep His commandments. Our uncircumcision does not count as circumcision if we do not keep the law.
Romans 2 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
The great advantage of the physical Jew is that He has the Torah to instruct Him in righteousness. If we have the scripture and have love toward YHWH, we have the greatest advantage...we want to do what He instructs and we can find out what He instructs.
If we love and know His commandments and do not keep them, we have been tricked/deceived.
1 John 3 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
We can even deceive ourselves by not putting YHWH's perfect law into practice.
James 1 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Or we can take Paul's advice to Timothy and read the older scriptures and put them into practice for instruction in righteousness and performing the good works that were before ordained that we should walk in them, because we have been grafted into Israel and are no longer gentiles.
2 Timothy 3 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Ephesians 2 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
I believe when Yahweh established his covenants with people in the wilderness that came from egypt, they were a people called Israel. The Jews were primarily from the tribe of Judah. So that is only one part of Israel. The question is also, were does that put us as gentiles grafted in to this Israel. If you want a part of these covenants you have to find were you fit in, right. Well I believe in Genesis 48:19 when Jacob blesses Ephraim and makes him a promise to him that his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (fullness of gentiles) That's us. So when speaking about Jews, I would rather people call them Israelites and then we can come to see the full picture of why messiah Yahshua came for the lost sheep of Israel. Matt 15:24
Now what I would like to say is, "If my people which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; the will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will hear their land." 2 chronicles 7:14
What is our wicked ways, the only thing it could be is our sins against his word. (commands, precepts ordinances) Seek Yahweh and know his ways, not the church's or some pastor that has been to seminary.
Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am yahweh that doth sanctify you. Shabbat Shalom!
Hebrews 7:18,19 For on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness; for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Galatians 3:2,3 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Galatians 4:9-11 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be know by God, how is it that you turn back to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
II Corinthians 3:9-11 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
James 1:25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the one of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.
I Timothy 1:8,9 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners....
Jeff, I do see two covenants, but I think your understanding is that in some way the law was a burden to bear and that Christ fulfilled it so that we no longer have to "bear" it. You are right that "by the works of the law shall no flesh be saved," but salvation through faith as a result of God's grace is the entry level into the covenant. If we stop there, at the best we would be stunted and at the worst we will turn again to our sinful nature.
In Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23 Jesus gives the parable of the sower.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
There were four different soil types the seed was sown in. Three seeds took root. Only one produced fruit. I think that if we think that we can have salvation without growing and maturing through following God's law we may very well find ourselves in one of the other two scenarios where the seed dies out for one reason or another.
What a sad thing to hear, "Depart from me ye workers of lawlessness, I never knew you."
I think that fruit equals works as ugly as that sounds. The chief purpose of man is to love God and to glorify him forever, not to live only for ourselves.
T. Family, I would like to ask what you are trying to say with those verses you posted,
what I'm understanding (please tell me if I'm wrong) is that you are use the words of Paul (a man) to go against the words of YHWH (God of the universe)
if you are responding to Tyler, he was just giving some encouraging words to those of us entering into YHWH's Shabbat, Thank you, Tyler, for those verses Shabbat Shalom
Gideon, No, I was not responding to what he had just said. There has been much that has been shared so far on an issue that covers a wealth of biblical material. I have been praying about how and when I might enter the discussion. I just decided to share some verses from Paul and James that deal with the issue of the Law. My comment just happened to fall after what Tyler said. While the Lord has much to teach me, I felt that it might be good to have some additional perspective. My time is limited, so I am not sure how often I might be able to comment. Your response, along with one earlier on, did raise a question. Are you saying that the words written in the epistles of Paul and James are not equivalent with the rest of the New and Old Testaments?
I defiantly believe that Paul and James are relevant to the rest of the Scriptures,
But, are you saying that the words of YHWH are not equivalent to the words of Paul and James? Doesn't the word of YHWH trumps everything else? if Pauls writings contradict YHWHs Word, can he really be a teacher of YHWH? I'm not at all saying that Paul and James are false teachers, only that they would never say anything to go against the word of YHWH.
I think it's important to remember that the Law came from YHWH, not Moses, and YHWH would not send His son to the world to do away with His own Laws, would He?
Gideon, You used the word “relevant” and not equivalent. Am I wrong in understanding that you are saying that parts of our Old and New Testaments are the word of God(YHWH) and others are not? I would like to answer your last question after we come to an understanding on this issue if that is ok? I believe that all of our Old and New Testament in their original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek, are the very word of God(YHWH).
What does the Bible call the very Word of God? 2 Tim 3:15-17 is what Paul says. i believe what the New testament says but it has to be subject to the Scriptures.
Where does New Testament get that ranking. I believe the Law and the Prophets and the writings are what the Apostles would call the Scriptures. The express Word of God? Can you give proof texts? How do you come to that conclusion?
Giz will answer later. He is on the phone now. these are my own questions.
Shabbat Shalom Brothers! This morning I have been reading through all the comments posted since I last was on. I have been blessed by so much that has been posted here (I know it's purpose is for the brotherhood, hope you dont mind a sister without a husband reading through and being encouraged by the men in her life). Praying for you all, that you will sharpen and encourage one another in Truth. I noticed Bo commenting earlier about the inconsideration of deleted posts, which I have done and want to clarify that I never removed them because I replied to quickly and needed to take back my words, the few times I deleted comments were because I type too quickly and when I reread the posts I noticed grammical errors, so I deleted and reposted with the corrections. I just wanted to let you brothers know that your words and the scriptures you are posting have encouraged me this morning. Blessing to you all, Andrea
Sid and Jeff, Can I jump in with a thought? Could the word "New" in New Covenant be "renewed" instead of brand new? Then there would be only one covenant and it is renewed. Would you look into the meaning of the word "new" with me/ I will do the same. Matt 26:28, Jer 31:31, Heb 8:8,13; Heb 12:24
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Sid/Jeff: Here is my first finding: The word "established" is better translated "made law" or maybe "this covenant has been given as Torah" as is printed in the Complete Jewish New Testament.
The highest honor is that of Torah and Hebrews says the New Testament is equal to the Torah.
"New" seems to mean the same kind of new as the New Moon:"Refreshed"
But Maybe there is evidence for me to get convinced that the New Testament is equal to the Old Testament.
MinnesotaMike/Gideon, Here are some verses and some other considerations. Kind of long, but if you have time please take a look at it.
II Peter 3:15,16 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him wrote to you, as also in all his letters speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
I believe there is significance in Peter including the phrase: "as they do also the rest of the Scriptures". By using the word "rest"(loipas) it seems clear that he is placing Paul's words on the same level as other Scripture, the Old Testament.
Galatians 1:11,12 For I would have know brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it , but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
In the previous verses Paul has just called out the Galatians for entertaining a false gospel. He makes clear in verses 11,12 that the gospel he preaches is from God. Paul spends the rest of Galatians correcting this false gospel. Surely Paul believes that his further explanation of this gospel and its implications are from Christ also.
Ephesians 1:2-10 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. And by referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. Colossians 1:24-27 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body ,which is the church, in filling up that which is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations; but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
It seems very clear from these passages that Paul believed that he had received clear revelation from God and was giving further truth from God that had not been revealed before. Notice that in Colossians 1:25 that the words "preaching of" are not in the Greek. It says: "that I might fully carry out the word of God".
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 16:13-15 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.
Jesus shared much with His disciples, truth that was not revealed in the Old Testament. He makes it very clear that His disciples/apostles would be the bearers of this truth. He promises them that the Spirit will reveal it to them and bring to remembrance what He had taught. We see this truth in the New Testament, the word of God ministered through His Spirit.
If Paul thought that his words were revelation from Christ, but they really were not, what does that make Paul? and Peter?
Some other considerations. If we are to accept the words of Christ, we must accept the Gospel accounts as the word of God. If we do not, how do we know what truly are the words of Christ? If these are the words of men and not necessarily the word of God, how can we truly use them to confirm the Old Testament? What then can we use to confirm the Old Testament? The words there were written down by men just like the words of the gospel accounts. Do you understand what I am getting at? I believe whole heartedly that the Old and New Testaments are the word of God. II Peter 1:20,21 The word of God(YHWH) through Moses(OT), the word of God through Matthew(Gospels), and the word of God through Peter(Epistles), are all equally the word of God(YHWH).
If we do not accept the New Testament as the word of God, then it becomes similar to commentaries by other Godly men. We can pick and choose what we agree with or what we feel fits in with the OT.
It seems clear that almost all the followers of Christ over history have accepted the authority of the Old and New testaments as the word of God.
I know this is very long but I hope it can give some understanding.
T. Family, I believe that Paul is indeed speaking scripture, but I in no way feel that he could write anything which if properly understood would in some way supercede what YHWH said in the Old Testament.
What we have effectively done through time, and false teaching and the traditions of men is to set the Old Testament against the New Testament as "old" meaning "outdated" and "new" meaning "revised or better" as if GOd forgot some things up front and improved it to make it easier for us to be saved.
In fact the term Torah does not mean "law" but "teaching and instruction." God gave it to us as a gift and living in it produces abundant life.
Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
We have taught the negative connotation of this verse. That he must "shoulder the entire law" instead of the positive meaning that living by God's instruction produce a life of abundance.
Blessings and curses resulted from the law. Not because God was there to slap our hands if we did not follow his instruction, but the following of it just produced a good life in the flesh.
If we think of the law as onerous and grace as if it lifts an elephant off of us it would make me want to get out from under the law also. But let me digress for a minute. Is brushing your teeth an onerous task. Just stop doing it. Does blessing or cursing flow from brushing your teeth. God gave us his Torah for our benefit, not for his grading scale.
Then we teach that "grace" is easy because all we have to do is accept what Christ did on calvary and we are in. That is the entry point. Paul said in 1 Cor. "No other foundation can any man lay than that which is laid, Jesus Christ" but he also indicates that we "build" on that foundation. When a baby is born he lives on his mothers milk and is a living soul. If he never progressed beyond that point would he grow to adulthood? We must grow and produce fruit. Matt 3:10b "every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire."
I would commend to you that there are two part of salvation that produces eternal life. 1 Peter 2:2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation.
Remember the parable of the sower. Four seeds planted, three took root but only one bore fruit. (produced eternal life)
Several places in the new testament speak to these two aspects. I'll list a couple here.
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God Torah produced) and our Saviour Jesus Christ Salvation by faith):
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God,(Torah) and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (salvation by faith)
I believe that living life my way and free from "Gods law" will only produce death but living for God using His instruction will spring up into everlasting life. The christian life is a life of growth or of sliding back. There is no such thing as status quo.
I am not talking about salvation by works in any way. But if we are solely concerned about being liberated from the law so that we can do whatever we want with no twinges of conscience we will at some point move far enough away of our own accord that we will miss the mark.
I shared my post because it seemed Gideon and Mike were indicating that they did not believe Paul's words were scripture as the Old Testament. I wanted to make sure that there was a common foundation before there was further discussion on other areas. Would you say that most of those among you who are understanding that the Law is to be followed today would uphold the New Testament as the word of God?
Do you agree that Matthew is inspired and that Messiah said exactly what He meant?
Matthew 5 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Paul seems to agree since he didn't stop keeping the law and taught for us to be followers of him. So if we follow Paul and Y'shua, we will also keep the law. By so doing we will be great in the kingdom if we teach other to keep the law also. Here is what Paul says about the law being voided:
“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Rom. 3:31)
Yes, as I stated in an earlier post, I do believe that Matthew is inspired. What Christ says is truth from God, since He is very God. My interpretation would probably be different than yours. Determining the meaning of "fulfill" is key.
My time is limited. I will try to share more when I can. Hopefully, there can be some profitable discussion.
Matthew 5 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
If you will note, whatever fulfill means to you or me... "ALL" is not fulfilled from the law and the prophets and heaven and earth have not passed. There are many things left to fulfill. Just read Revelation or any of the prophets. There are even things that were prophesied in the Law that have not come to pass yet. Oh, and heaven and earth have not passed away yet too. So neither of the two conditions have been met for even the smallest pen stroke of the law to pass from it.
"I Timothy 1:8,9 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners...."
I think that Paul told Timothy how to use the law lawfully...let's look:
2 Timothy 3 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The scripture that Timothy knew from his youth was the Law and the Prophets. Paul instructs Timothy to use the Law to obtain correct doctrine, to gain instruction in righteousness (living correctly), and to know everything he needed to know about good works (throughly furnished unto all good works). So Paul's definition of how to use the law lawfully is to use it as instructions on how to live life and what to practice. Pretty clear, don't you think?
You quoted: "...that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners...."
John is used by YHWH to explain Paul on this one. Who is the righteous person? Who is the one that sins? Who is the lawless? Who is the sinner?
1 John 3 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[The sinner is the one that transgresses the law.]
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[The righteous person is the one that does righteousness. The context shows us that the person that continues to transgress the law is the unrighteousness person and the one who keeps the law is the one that does righteousness.]
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Letting scripture interpret scripture, we come to realize that the deceived person is the one that thinks that he is righteous though he does not do righteousness. He is the one that does not think that he needs the law. But the very fact that he is transgressing it makes him a sinner and possibly rebellious...and we know that the rebellious and sinners need the law to instruct them. We use the law lawfully when we look into it like a mirror and adjust our actions to match what it says we should do. If we look into YHWH's perfect law and think that we do not need to adjust to match what it says, we deceive ourselves.
James 1 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
What is the perfect law?
Psalm 19 7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
What reward could there be for keeping YHWH's law?
Matthew 5 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
1 John 3 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
Revelation 22 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Yes, it is great reward. Even though there is a standard to live by. I still don't trust in my own self to "KnowItAll". When I think I am doing all things well, I fall. Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
When I look into the perfect Law, the Law of Liberty, I have to pray for the leading of the Spirit to show me faults that I do not see on my own. Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
Then He leads me in the way everlasting, back to the right path.
What is the New Covenant or New Testament? No difference to me in the two phrases.
Does that title denote a collection of writings by eyewitnesses and companions of our wonderful Savior, or, Is the New Covenant the act Y'shua performed at His execution.
For that matter, what is the Old Covenant. Have these been defined before in this blog?
We use these titles for the parts of the Bible, but they both have another meaning. With use they become common terms.
Short and sweet: I would say the Old is at Mt Sinai and the New is at Mt Calvary.
I believe Hebrews 8:6b is saying what happened at Calvary is made Torah. The word for established could literally mean "made law". it goes on to say that the torah will be written on hearts of Israel and Judah.
Minnesota Mike: You ask good questions. I think I will be talking past many here if we don't work from the same definitions and presuppositions. Sid is a good Bible man, but does not represent or understand my presuppositions in this blog. 1. When I say two covenants, I do not mean Old and New Testaments. I mean the One way Covenant started in Genesis 3:15 as soon as sin came in. It is given specifically to Abram in Gen 12:1-3 in the starting of the nation, Israel. YHWH ratified it in Gen 15. It shows up all over the OT, including Jer 31. It is important because it is the basis for our salvation in Christ. The Blessings of this covenant ARE Jesus Christ. Always were the Messiah and still are. This is all over the book of Romans and Galatians. 2. The other covenant is the two-way covenant the God gave to and through Moses. This was how the Israelites were supposed to live out their lives. They failed miserably time and time again and were constantly judged. Moses asked God to REMEMBER. God withheld judgement in remembering what? His one way covenant, which I call the Abrahamic covenant. This is the same today. We are saved because of God's one way Covenant from the same Abraham. It was born as a baby named Jesus Christ, grew as man, like us, but lived every jot and tittle of the law, UNLIKE US, and died and rose again for us. 3. The purpose of the law. I define the law as ANYTHING YHWH commands us to do or not to do. This includes ALL 66 books of God's Word. It's role is to prepare us for Christ. To show us where we fall short. To expose our sin. Then, we can receive Christ. We can receive forgiveness and grace. Then, and only then, can we have any hope of following God's Torah Law. Without His grace, we have no hope. It is mere filthy rags. Only what Christ does in me counts for anything. I am a sinner. He is everything. He is my hope. I have no hope for salvation in following the law, I only have hope in Christ, that He followed the law for me.
There are just too many passages which refer to something beyond salvation. When Paul says in 1 Cor. 3:10-11 that Jesus Christ is the foundation he also says to take heed how you build on that foundation. "Build" is an action word indicating "work." Faith without works is dead.
Jeff would hold to the teachings of men in his understanding that Jer 31 is talking of the Abrahamic covenant. But that was the understanding which was needed to make their theology work. And furthermore we need to understand that Paul was given the responsibility by God to change whatever he felt was needed to make the gospel more palatable.
God's word is inerrant. If it is in disagreement with itself we are not understanding it properly.
When the writers of the new testament reference the law, or commandments, etc. the recipients of those teachings would have only had one resource to go to to see what was being referred to, the Old Testament. Any other understanding is denying the reality of the time. God gave us His instructions, the Torah, and it was perfect. In the New Testament it is referred to as "the perfect law of liberty." Because of our wicked hearts we choose to view God's law in a somewhat negative light.
One more time I would like to receive a response from someone who feels that the law does not apply as it was written in the old testament. Which of God's laws or instructions would you choose to do away with if you could?
TFamily - on the term fulfilled:
OT: Animal sacrifices for sin. NT: Jesus Christ, the perfect lamb sacrificed for the sins of the world once and for all time. (That portion of the law; Fulfilled)
OT: Priestly ceremonial law requirements. NT: The veil of the temple was rent in two and we have access unto Jesus Christ who is now our high priest. (That portoin of the law; Fulfilled)
These fullfillments are clearly understood and clearly explained in the New Testament. As such a majority of the law was indeed fulfilled. But the part that remained did not and will not change regardless of our theology. It seems that the word "fulfilled" has become a catch all to explain anything we do not understand or choose not to obey. In Matt 5:48says "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Was this just another command to frustrate us or did he want us to truly embrace his teaching and instruction? In fact all of God's "instructions" were given for benefit. And in our "running that we may obtain" (1Cor 9:24) his grace is sufficient in our shortcomings.
To all, I just wanted to share my heart to make things clear. My desire to share here is not to try and move it away from an edifying effort among you folks. I came on here because it was shared with me by some concerned ones that I know. My desire is to seek the truth and honor and exalt our wonderful Savior. If anyone feels that I am not demonstrating that, I can withdraw. But if you feel the dialogue can have profit on this particular blog, I will continue to share. I am trying to deal with each issue and question that is raised, and I may be a little slow in responding.
I think that this discussion is profitable. I would like to introduce a question? We are talking about being grafted in. In Jesus discourse in John 15:5-6, 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
After salvation what is indicated by "abide." Is that an active verb, or because of what Jesus did can it be passive on our part? Sid
In that two-way cov, if one does all that is written he is innocent if he he fails to do all that is written he is guilty. Y'shua(Jesus) was innocent so he did it all perfectly. Is it your thinking that we are held responsible for doing it, too, but that Y'shua did it FOR US? So we don't have to?
I don't know if there is a passage that backs up the idea that I described above. He did it all for me, so I don't have to.
From Eph 2 but know I am calling attention to the whole chapter for context.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Covenants, plural, but not my point. of promise.
We used to be gentiles, used to walk according to this world, used to be disobedient. Used to be strangers and foreigners but now we are not.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
We must be obedient->To the whole Bible(ot,nt), Accept Messiah and rules to live by. This should not be huge discussion. It always is, tho. There is some underlying "fear" that we "law abiders" are doing our "law abiding" for "salvation" instead of abiding in Christ. We are not. We accept the sacrifice of the savior as the payment for our sin and the sin of the entire cosmos, for all people past, present and future. But sin is described in the law and now we seek to be holy even as Y'shua was Holy...And we are still abiding in Him and bearing fruit. Nothing we do or can do is about getting salvation. It is all because now we are saved, we want to live right.righteous. we want to be great in the kingdomn ot just slide in. I still say no new religion is born out of the New Testament. It should be Israel that accepted and Israel that did not accept Messiah. Still Israel. We are grafted into Israel.
Don't be afraid to observe the Sabbath day this week. You have three more days to decide. tick tick tick. :)#
T. Family to answer your question from the 7th, here's the bottom line, Paul will not say anything that will contradict anything YHWH says. if someone is reading it that way, you're misinterpreting, that's my opinion. I think if Paul was here right now, and saw the way his writings are being used to tear down the Law, he would be appalled.
In regard to Matthew 5:17-19, yes, there are still prophecies of the Prophets yet to be fulfilled in regard to Christ. Yet many have been fulfilled and the prophecy no longer exists because it has been accomplished. The prophecy is not abolished but fulfilled.
From what Sid said, I'm assuming that you don't keep the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the law, because they have been fulfilled. So, in essence, fulfillment results in cessation of application.
I believe we must view the Law as a unit. It was naturally separated into its categories when it was given to express it logically, but Scripture does not separate it like we do today. Jesus and the writers of the New Testament refer to the Law as a single entity. When they speak of the law there is nothing to indicate it is not the whole Law. When David referred to the Law it seems it was the Law as a whole.
Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, not just part of it. In His life, death, and resurrection He did fulfill all of it. In Christ, the Law has been satisfied in all its aspects, ceremonial, sacrificial, and moral/civil. For those who are in Christ, it would make no further demands. This is what is indicated in Romans 10:4-8. Christ is the “end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes”. In verses 5,6 Paul contrasts the righteousness based on the law with the righteousness based on faith. The word for “end”(telos) means termination point, the limit at which a thing ceases to be. It is used numerous times in the New Testament in this way. The Law asked from man obedience. Only in Christ was the perfect conformity accomplished. This is confirmed clearly in Romans 8:1-4. Verses 3,4: “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did; sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”. This lines up together with the Abrahamic covenant related to faith. Look at Galatians 3. The promise was before the Law. The Law came in beside and served a special purpose until Christ came. The Law was good in accomplishing its purpose but it was not of faith. Once the object of faith came, Christ, we are no longer under the tutor, the Law.
The whole law is fulfilled and not abolished. Its requirement is accomplished in the believer through Christ. Just as we are not obligated to the sacrificial and other aspects, we are not obligated to the moral aspects. This is because we now have life; “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death”.(Romans 8:2). The Law could never impart life, not eternal life nor the life that lives through us daily in Christ Jesus(Galatians 3:21). Galatians 5:22,23 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law”. As we look at all of this I think it is important to take a look at how we interpret Scripture. God has not revealed His plan all at once but progressively over time. The OT writers anticipated a Messiah and a kingdom; however they did not have understanding of the church and the mystery that Paul shares. We must be careful not to restrict the NT writers with the OT. They expand on the OT and share additional truth not known before. There is new truth that clarifies the developing plan of God. If the Law has been fulfilled and is set aside in its application, this does not mean we are abolishing it or seeking to annul its authority in the developing plan of God. Jesus told the disciples when they first were sent out to take nothing with them (Luke9) but when he talked to them later (Luke 22) he told them to take money, bag, etc. with them. Both are commands of Christ. Two conflicting commands. But in the developing plan of God they both have their appointed purpose. This is an example of this principle.
There are so many aspects of this area of discussion. It can go on for very long.
Bo said: “John is used by YHWH to explain Paul on this one. Who is the righteous person? Who is the one that sins? Who is the lawless? Who is the sinner?” I will try and make some comments on this later.
MinnesotaMike: To answer your question briefly on the two covenants. Regardless of what you call them - one is one way and the other is two way (Moses). In Jer 31 you will notice that the Israelites did NOT keep the commands handed down from Moses (two way). But God says He will renew the ONE WAY covenant (He says I WILL forgive and remember their sins no more). Notice He is the subject and He does the action alone (without us). I am not saying I know it all, and apologize if I come across as not need to learn more. This is simply my understanding of the two covenants. NOTICE for example in Ex 35 when they sinned by making a golden calf. What does Moses say to God after God wants to burn them up? Moses says, "remember" your covenant that you made with Abram, Isaac and Jacob. God renews the covenant and they are forgiven. ALSO NOTICE: when Jesus celebrates the passover, He says, "remember me". Again, He points to the renewed covenant in His blood. This is because Jesus blood is the fulfillment of the one way covenant. Just as the Israelites needed God to act on their behalf to forgive them for their failure to keep the law or torah, so we need God to forgive us in Christ when we fail. This is GRACE. For the Israelites they remembered how God delivered them from slavery in Egypt, which foreshadowed Christ. We remember how Christ delivered us from slavery to sin. There is your fulfillment in Christ. There is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ. We still fail. We can try as hard as we might and our efforts will still fall short. Our efforts are still filthy rags to God. ONLY the efforts of Christ count. God credits righteousness to us BECAUSE OF CHRIST, not us. With Abraham it was the same. It says in Gen 15:6 that Abram was credited righteousness due to his believing, not because of his ability to follow the torah. I believe this is basic. Without this understanding we will never understanding the role of God's delightful law in our lives. I love His law, but without His one way covenant in Christ the law would only condemn me. I thank Him everyday for living the law for me and dying my death for me and rising again for me. Thank you, Lord for these wonderful truth seekers on this page. Forgive me for not always being a good example of a seeker of your truth. Thank you most of all for Jesus Christ and His grace. jeffh
So you and I both accept what happened on Calvary for the payment of the penalty of sin. what our Savior did we could not and do not have to do. Now how will we live? Doing righteousness or not worrying about it? Well, of course, we will want to do what is righteous. So we look into that perfect law and see what to do, how to decide.
We won't eat the flesh of a swine because that is condemned in Scripture. We will rest on the sabbath(7th day) because that is instructed in the Torah.
Rememberance of a covenant or as oft as you do this remember me... did not change specific instructions that are for our good and we can have an abundantly full life by them.
I have said before, we don't do what we do for salvation. Rather, because we are saved we live the way the Bible teaches. You are right, this is basic and foundational. Shalom,Michael
I am responding to what I read from Tfamily above. Jeff talks about two covenants, Tfamily talks about a fulfilled law.
Y'shua talks about heaven and earth passing away before anything falls away from the law.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
If I was not influenced by some presupposition (theology), and just read that for the first time, I would go looking for what the "law and the prophets" meant. Then I think I would seek to do my best to observe all things that are commanded and I would see Y'shua(Jesus) as the one in charge of it all.
Deut 4:26, 30:19,28 Why does He mention heaven and earth passing away at all? I think this verse in Deu 30:19 is what it is about "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"
a couple of verses earlier Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Love YHWH, walk in his ways, keep his commandments..blessings shall follow. Then heaven and earth are called to witness. Until the witness dies the provisions stand in the agreement(covenant) whether it be one-way or two-way.
It takes two witnesses. Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Boom! Law can't be done until the two witnesses are gone: heaven and earth pass away It is in the New Testament, Y'shua says it.
Paul does talk about the law in parts, not only as a whole. Don't tell me you think YHWH gave us "bondage" just to show us we are failures. He loves us and gave us instructions on a beautiful way to live for long life and prosperity and health and faithful relationships.
Not only that but you don't seem to see that some of the stuff that is called law is not even in the Torah. It is extra added by pharisees. For example, Mark 7 washing hands..please read it but I will copy only this Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Jews call that type of tradition "law", too. I would not attempt to site many verses on blog but Paul must be seen in truth to not lump every thing in the Torah in one pot and flush it all.
Tell me, guys, what is in the Torah you do not want to do? Except for the Ceremony and the Ritual. Do yo know what is there. For instance Levitucus 19:3,9,13,29 are those gone away or do they still sound pretty good?
Mr. T. Did you you really mean to say we have no obligation to the moral law of scripture. Do you really live with no obligation to the scripture at all??? Come now, I could never offend anyone then, no matter what I did.
Sorry, I forgot to smile again. I really do hope to sound off in Love. It really cheers me to have you guys as new friends from around the country. We are not as far apart as you might think.
MMike: We may not be too far off from each other. You brought up Sabbath. Here we might see a bit of difference (which is fine, I don't diparage worship on Saturday). I happen to believe that Jesus raised the standard and turned it inward (He is the Lord of the Sabbath). So, I worship Jesus, who IS my Sabbath Rest every day, not just one day. That, to me, IS following the command from God, "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" See the difference? So, I believe I am worshipping on Saturday and Sunday. He is my REST eternally, not just one day. Psalm 95:1 / Hebrews/ Matt 11:28, etc. jeffh
The problem is that YHWH tell us to rest and make sure that everyone in our care rests on the seventh day of the week. Even our animals are to get the day off. Also there is to be a holy convocation on the 7th day of the week. All of scripture tells us to worship YHWH with all that we are all the time. The Sabbath is not about worship...except it proves whether or not we will worship YHWH by keeping His commandments or not.
Will we accept His request or do things our own way? We will say that we are worshiping and obeying while heaven and earth witness against us. Oh, we are worshiping. But maybe not what we think that we are worshiping.
Matthew 15 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
John 4 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 17 17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Spirit and truth...please. Not just spirit. "Thy word is truth" is referencing YHWH's Torah. Will we be sanctified to YHWH or to our great ideas and systems? How do we know if our heart is close to YHWH instead of far from Him?
1 John 5 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Deuteronomy 30 10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
It is not too hard for us, if we have it in our hearts. If we love Him, we love His word. If we love His word, we do it. We always end up doing what is in our hearts. The most important things get done. Keeping YHWH's commandments is our proof that we love Him the most.
We are not save by keeping His commandments. We are saved by faith in His atoning blood. We work out our salvation by keeping His commandments. We show our love by keeping them. We live righteous and holy lives by keeping them. What does it mean when we do not want to keep them? What does it mean if we do not even try to keep them?
We must endure until the end to be saved.
Matthew 24 12 Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be delivered.
Revelation 14 12 Here is endurance of the saints: here are those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.’
So law breaking shows that our love is cold. That we are not enduring. Continuing to keep YHWH's commandments along with faith in Y'shua is enduring till the end.
Bo, I appreciate what you are saying and I admire your heart to seek truth. amen. I can basically agree with everything you just wrote. We may simply have a differing concept of what YHWH was ultimately commanding us through the Torah. I think it was the Jews for Jesus site (?) that I read that warned us not stop with the torah alone, but to finish the whole story (context) with Jesus words and actions, our Messiah. The Gospels. Yes, resting is important, both literally and spiritually. Yshua did not come to earth, ultimately, to have us rest once a week, it was to seek and to save the lost. By the way, I do rest on a literal seventh day, and I also avoid pork for health reasons. We circumcise our boys for health and personal reasons. God's laws are good for us. I delight in them. But, if I think that I am more righteous (to justify myself) because I do those things, then as it says clearly in Galatians 5:2, Christ is of no value and I am falling from grace. God forbid that we would ever run to the torah instead of the cross, every day. The Torah wonderfully points us to the cross, not the other way around. I say that with lots of respect for your approach. brother in Christ, jeffh
Don't be afraid to obey the Torah for real reasons, not health reasons. It won't hurt and you won't lose your salvation.
You, too, can be called great in the Kingdom.
Don't let flesh and blood reveal this to you, but the Spirit of the Living God.
It is not a matter of the cross point us to the Torah. Now that we are saved,redeemed,translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light... I still think most people who just read the Bible with out theologians telling them what to believe, would not work on Saturdays and would not eat pork. They would do things this way because the Bible says so.
MinnesotaMike: I don't think you are full of hooey. ha good one. Depends on what they read. If they read Romans 14, Gal. 5, Col 2, Acts 15, Hebrews, Jer 31, etc. I don't think they would. Besides, scriptures tells us, through the Bereans and through the example of Paul and the apostles, so lean on our more, studied and mature rabbis and brothers in Christ to help us interpret. Left to our own, our evil nature would lead us astray. Romans 1-3 jeffh
Did you guys ever wonder what a blog would look like if the Apostles lived in the 21st century. Can you imagine James, Paul and John going at it? Do you think that what they wrote to each other would be scripture? There is definitely something lacking in getting to the bottom line on this type of dialogue.
Paul: "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
James: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."
Paul: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
James: "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."
John: "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."
Paul: "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Peter: "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Paul: "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."
Peter: "our beloved brother Paul"
John: "We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God."
John: "he that knoweth God heareth us"
James: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Paul: "Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
John: "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."
Bo, In response to your comments on I Timothy 1:8,9; I John 3, etc.
First, let me clarify to all. While I believe the Law was fulfilled in Christ and no longer has the application as a required guide of conduct for the one who is in Christ, the Law is definitely useful. It reflects the righteousness of God and the sinfulness of man. There are eternal principles of God’s nature expressed in it. However, these principles existed from eternity long before the Law was given. Much of this is reiterated in the NT.
I Timothy 1:8,9 – Yes, Timothy did have the OT as a resource, but he also had the teachings of Christ and the word from Paul to clarify. II Timothy 2:2: “And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” Paul exhorted Timothy to pass on the truth that he had heard from Paul. Just as Paul said in Galatians 3 that the Law was added because of transgressions, he shares with Timothy that it can lead to salvation through faith in Christ(by showing the righteousness of God and the sinfulness of man.). I believe it is clear how the NT writers expand on and clarify the OT as God continues to reveal His developing plan.
In regard to the righteous vs. the unrighteous. I think it is clear here in I Timothy as in I John 3 and Romans 8, that they are describing two categories of people: those who know God and fruit is evident and those who do not know God because there is no fruit. A believer is righteous in two ways: he has been declared righteous judicially by God because of the death of Christ(II Corinthians 5:21) and he walks in righteousness(not perfection) as a characteristic of life because of the life of Christ working in him(Galatians 2:20). Therefore, the law is not applied to the believer because he is righteous but to the unbeliever because it will point out his sinfulness and condemn him.
Let’s look carefully and I John 3:4. It literally reads: “everyone doing sin also is doing lawlessness(anomia), and sin is lawlessness”. The words “doing sin” refer to the idea of practicing sin, not just one sin. The Greek does not say “sin is transgression of the law”. The idea is that the one who has a lifestyle of sin lives as if there is no constraint on him. This idea is expressed in Romans 1,2. The word for “law”(nomos) is not used anywhere in I John. Verse nine uses the same phrase “doing sin”. The true believer is characterized by righteousness although he still sins(I John 2:1) I think we should also see that sin is broader than just breaking the law. There are internal type sins referred to in the NT that are not addressed by the law.
I believe James was talking of a more complete law, the law of Christ (I Corinthians 9:21; Galatians 6:2). It is called the law of liberty or freedom (same word used in Galatians 5:13). Acts 13:38,39 says: “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses”. The law of Moses does not bring freedom.
Our blessing does not come through keeping the law or obedience to other commandments. Ephesians 1:3 says “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ,”. Israel sought obedience to the law to be blessed. We are in Christ and His righteousness is accounted to us. In Him we have all resources. He is our blessing. We don’t live looking for blessing. We live from blessing.
When we operate out of love for YHWH the law is not grievous. If it is a checklist that we have to check because it is contrary to our nature "the letter kills," but if we operate out of our love for YHWH "the spirit giveth life."
I believe that Paul taught new gentile (out of covenant) individuals who accepted Christ's death on their behalf differently as they had no previous knowledge. But when they begin to grow in their walk I believe that their resource to work from is God's Law, which James refers to as the perfect law of liberty. What is indicated in James 4:17 "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Where do I find out what is good.
Also I don't believe God has a developing plan if what is indicated by this is that it was not perfect from the beginning. Sin did not take God by surprise. But still he predestined man to be conformed to his image. He saw the end from the beginning and put in place a complete plan from day one until "all is fulfilled."
I really don’t see where Paul clearly seeks to purposely segment the law to point out those differences in the law. Where Paul talks about the law in II Corinthians 3, most of Galatians, and Romans I think it is very clear that he is including the Mosaic law.
When you do not keep the sacrificial and ceremonial laws are you not violating Christ’s command in Matthew 5:17-19? Sid said that these had been fulfilled. I am assuming that you don’t keep them because they are fulfilled. Therefore, fulfillment leads to not following those aspects of the law. If Christ fulfilled all aspects of the law then the same principle would apply.
Mike, look at Paul’s prayer for believers in Ephesians 1 and 3 and Colossians 1. That is what I want fulfilled in my life. In Romans 13 and Galatians 5 it says the law is fulfilled when walking in love. In Galatians 5 just after that he describes the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit. Then he gives the fruit of the Spirit. My desire is to see this fruit, the character of Christ, manifested in my life. Galatians 3:10-14 shows that the law has much to do with doing not trusting. I can perform the law. I cannot perform patience, gentleness, etc. As I walk in faith in Christ, the Spirit can manifest those in me. This is why he says the law is not of faith.
There are many commandments that are not for you or me. The ones pertaining to women, Levites, priests, etc. There are many commandments that YHWH has made impossible for us to keep. Temple offerings, tithing, ashes of the red heifer etc. There are many that can be kept. Celebrating YHWH's holy days and Sabbath, dietary laws, not murdering, not coveting, etc. We will not be accountable for not doing those that are not for us or impossible for us. We will be responsible for teaching all of it and doing all we can.
In the millennium, the temple will be rebuilt. Offerings will be offered. There will be a place to go to celebrate the feasts that has YHWH's name there again. Even the nations will be required to keep the feasts on pains of drought and plagues. We have the opportunity to joyfully obey YHWH now and be rewarded for it. If He didn't want us to keep His commandments, He would not promise greatness in the Millennial kingdom for doing and teaching them now. (Mat. 5:19)
One thing that is hard for me to understand. Most of you folks seem to speak out clearly and often that the law should be followed. The writers of the epistles have much opportunity to just come out and say the same: "Fellow followers of Christ. I am not trying to nullify the law, you still need to keep it." But to me they seem to point to its weakness to save and to sanctify. Hebrews 7:18,19
1st) no one says that the law saves. 2nd) I wonder what your definition of sanctify is.
How about these to answer your question above:
Romans 3 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 6 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6 15 What then? shall we sin (transgress the law), because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 7 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 7 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
1 John 3 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 5 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2 Peter 2 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Revelation 22 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
James 2 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
I am really enjoying this part of the discussion. I have so much to learn. Bo, I appreciate the list of verses you gave revealing that we need to look at the WHOLE of scriptures, which I think takes time, hard work and patience. - REGARDING WHICH LAWS WE FOLLOW AND WHICH WE DON'T. This might surprise you but I think we follow ALL of them, including the sacrificial laws and ceremonial laws. more later, gotta run a bit jeffh
I am back. Why do I think we still follow ALL of them? Because we were never commanded NOT to follow God's law, only to shed the exterior expressions for something more and greater. For example: most would say that we should not follow the sacrificial laws expressed in the Torah as the death of a lamb. Well, I understand that Jesus is our final sacrifice as Lamb of God, but we still follow the command to sacrifice don't we? Romans 12:1 - present YOUR bodies as LIVING sacrifices. Here we are also fulfillments of the law, not abolishing the law. Every Torah law corresponds to something greater (type to antitype - see 1 Peter 3:21 KJV) Shadow to Reality. Sabbath rest to Jesus. Promised Land to Jesus and Heaven. Blessing to Christ. Pork to our uncleanness. Romans 14 and Phil 4:8. Six days of work to our works-righteousness, then Sabbath to Christ as our eternal rest. Circumcision to baptism (my personal belief Col 2). Waters of Noah's flood to waters of baptism. Passover blood of the covenant to Lord's supper blood of the covenant. On and on it goes. Like it says in Rom 14, the Kingdom of God is NOT about eating and drinking, but about righteousness, peace and joy.
Does this ring somewhat true for you guys? I am still learning and don't have all the answers yet, but these discussions sure help. jeffh
"Every Torah law corresponds to something greater "
Did you look at Lev 19 yet? Lev 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy. Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God. Lev 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
Holiness looks like honoring your mother and keeping His Sabbaths(feast days), not worshiping idols.
If the Savior doesn't teach this, then He must be a false prophet according to Deut 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. Deu 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, **to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in**. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Also, Where does it say Y'shua is our Sabbath? or Baptism replaces circumcision?
You are still not dealing with what Paul told Timothy. He said:
2 Timothy 3 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The "holy scriptures" (not just any old writings of apostles and such that may or may not become scripture as far as we are concerned) that were available at the time Timothy was a child and even when Paul penned the words quoted above, was what we call the "Old Testament." It was these that Paul said would "throughly furnish the man of Elohim unto all good works." What good works are described in the Tanakh? What is in there that you do not think are still good works? What are good works supposed to accomplish? Salvation?...NO! What did Y'shua say?
Matthew 5 13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The good works are the commandments of YHWH. They will not change until "ALL" are fulfilled. "ALL" is not fulfilled until heaven and earth pass away. We will receive our place in the kingdom according to our purposeful doing and teaching others to do YHWH's commandments. Our light that shines before men is our obedience to these commandments. These are our good works. Anything else is manmade tradition and philosophy and vain deceit. These do not glorify our Father in heaven. Obedience to His word does glorify Him.
If we have lost our savor, we deserve to be trampled under the feet of men. If we obey YHWH's commandments, we will rule over men. The good works that YHWH prepared for us are spelled out in the thing that Paul called the "holy scriptures."
Ephesians 2 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
We are no longer gentiles. We have been grafted into Israel. They are supposes to be the light of the world by obedience to YHWH's commandments. They/we do not get saved by the good works, but they/we are obligated to them...since they have been bought with a very dear price. We are supposed to be built upon the foundation of the "apostles and prophets," not just the apostles. Moses was one of those prophets. He was the first to say that others would see our good works and glorify YHWH.
Deuteronomy 4 6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
We do not fulfill the righteousness of the law unless we are doing what the law calls righteous. If we love it, we will do it. If it is a bunch of obsolete rules to us, we won't do it. If we will not subject ourselves to YHWH's law, we prove that we are carnal minded and fighting against YHWH's good works that He has prepared for us to walk in so that He will be glorified.
Romans 8 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
To whom we yield out members servants to obey, to him we belong. The things that we do, prove to whom we are sanctified. Holiness requires obedience.
John 17 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Messiah set Himself apart to YHWH by obeying perfectly YHWH's word. That word was spelled out in a general sense in the Law and the Prophets. He prayed that the Father would sanctify, not only the apostles, but us that hear their word...by the very same truth...the Tanakh...just like Paul told Timothy. We are sent into the world to be a light, not of ourselves or our church, but of the Father in heaven...just like the Son was sent to be "The Light" not of Himself, but of the Father.
You wrote: "Galatians 3:10-14 shows that the law has much to do with doing not trusting. I can perform the law. I cannot perform patience, gentleness, etc. As I walk in faith in Christ, the Spirit can manifest those in me. This is why he says the law is not of faith."
Real trust produces works.
James 2 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Do I really trust YHWH if I will not put into practice what He has commanded? The demons do not do what YHWH commanded. If a child says that he trusts his father, but won't obey him, what is the problem? Real righteousness is displayed in real obedience to the one we really trust.
You wrote: "One thing that is hard for me to understand. Most of you folks seem to speak out clearly and often that the law should be followed. The writers of the epistles have much opportunity to just come out and say the same: "Fellow followers of Christ. I am not trying to nullify the law, you still need to keep it." But to me they seem to point to its weakness to save and to sanctify."
1st) no one says that the law saves. 2nd) I wonder what your definition of sanctify is.
How about these to answer your question above:
Romans 3 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 6 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6 15 What then? shall we sin (transgress the law), because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 7 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 7 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
1 John 3 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 5 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2 Peter 2 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Revelation 22 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
James 2 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
I hope I speak out clearly and often that the Law should be obeyed and followed. We (the Kerr family) are not doing it for salvation. We don’t fear the Judge will crack us if we don’t. We do it because this is how the Wise apostles and prophets lived and how they taught me to live by what they wrote. This is the faith that is written, it is the faith I was taught in church, it is the expression of the Spirit in me. It is me being set apart to Him and good works. The Bible calls that sanctification. Someone please tell me “what is it” that you are talking about that is gone and done away with?? Mark, you say we are not obligated by anything that is written, at least I hear that in what I read. It is wrong to say Y’shua did it for me and I don’t have to… You don’t really believe that if your conscience pricks you when you drive by someone on the road with a flat tire. You don’t have to stop because “Jesus did it for you”. Baptism/immersion, tithing, helping widow and orphans, being kind to animals, being good neighbors… This is the Torah. I say you do the stuff you do because it is in your heart. That is because, in part, the Torah is being written on your hearts, and mine. And because of the indwelling of the Ruach ha’Kodesh(Holy Spirit). Did someone quote our brother James saying in James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
What we “do” shows our faith. We agree on some basic points. Salvation by grace, not works. We also differ. We disagree. But about what? If you give to others, you show forth what your faith is. If you immerse a new brother or sister in messiah, it is a work that shows faith. Keeping “old testament laws” is the same. Immersion is not new in the Gospels. It is a Commandment. Tithing is a Commandment. Giving to the poor is a Commandment. We cannot select only what is explicitly re-stated in the Gospels or Epistles to follow. Those guys are drawing upon a culture of the Torah. Get used to it. It is true. Be great in the Kingdom by doing and teaching commandments. Mat 5:19
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
What is being said here? Who is speaking? To whom?
Scribes and Pharisees teach two things:(1)what they read directly from the Scriptures, (2) the other is the example of life that does not match the scriptures.
When they sat in the stone chair (seat of Moses) they could only read directly from the Torah. They could not teach or make comments.
I could continue on in responding to the previous things just shared, but I am not sure how profitable it would be. We disagree. These blogs just take too much time for me. If my understanding is correct, then you are basically saying that the great masses of believers over the history of the church have been wrong and that there is a small group, comparatively, that have the truth on this. Are you not saying that the men of God that He used greatly in periods of revival in our country and elsewhere, where millions were led to Christ, that they do not really understand God's word?
The implication that I gather from your comments is that I am deceived. I love my dear Savior. He is my life, my strength, my all. I hunger for His fullness daily. I so desire that His life of love, joy, patience, gentleness, goodness, meekness, faith, and self-control would be manifest in me.
I am saying what James says in James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
In these days there is a return to Torah. I believe it is a move of the Spirit and not a great deception. Wesley, Stanley, Moody, Billy Graham...They all moved with the Spirit in their day. I love your/my dear savior, too. He is my life, my hope and my all. Without Him I would fall.
This is the day. Choose now or miss it. It is Preparation Day and this evening is the Sabbath.
It is great practice for things to come. This is a shadow of what the future holds. Choose now to enter His rest. You are all invited to my Sabbath Table tonight. Arrive just before the going down of the sun. We will lift up the cup and the bread and make b'rakah(blessing) just like Y'shua did when he fed thousands. We will feast on a fabulous meal my wife and daughters will prepare.
Will you join us to give thanks and bless YHWH who brings forth good things out of the earth?
It is a wonderful time as my wife and I and our ten children and our son's wife and my unborn-grandchild gather around our big table and laugh and talk about our favorite things that happened this week. We give praise and thanks to the one who gave us such great commandments to walk in.
Nothing legalistic, no one is tied up and forced to do anything. It is pure Joy to have this life,this family,These Mitzvot (commands).
You will probably like it so much you will want to do it at your house next week. Please RSVP so we can set a place for you. :)# Shabbat Shalom! Michael
What if we are saying that all the ones before us were sinners. They already believed that. You think that you are a sinner. I think that I am one. The issue is whether we repent of the sins that we know that we commit. We all commit sins that we do not know about. Sometimes it comes to our attention later and we can repent...and then we ought to. YHWH's law was given to us so that we could repent, both in the big sense for salvation, and in the small sense every day. It reveals to us our sin. Paul tells us this plainly. We do not seek to be justified by keeping the law, we simply look into the mirror of YHWH's perfect law and adjust our life to match what YHWH calls righteous and holy living. If we read and and do not do it, we deceive ourselves.
What of those that have gone before us? We cannot rest upon their obedience, and we certainly do not want to continue to sin as they sinned. There is even scriptural precedent for us confessing the sins of our fathers (maybe even church fathers). What if YHWH didn't have our forefathers keep Sabbath...what is that to thee?
John 21 21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Just because YHWH may not have revealed everything to our forefathers, in their day, does not mean that we should not be faithful to what He has revealed to us in our day.
Deuteronomy 29 29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Somethings somehow were secret things to them that are not a secret to us. We even need to be concerned about our secret faults.
Psalm 19 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. 12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. 13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. 14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
I do not know what you find wrong with the sentiments expressed above. Seems like any believer would have to agree with the above words.
Those "reformers" gave their lives that I might have the liberty to read and follow the scriptures today. I give thanks for those men. But, I also want to pick up where they left off. I will be a reformer, too. I will call men to obey the Word while they can. I am sure you know people like Finney kept the Sabbath but on the first day of the week instead of the seventh. Yes, I think he was wrong. but he came out of the catholic-dominated religious realm that hated Jews and did all in their power to distance themselves from the ones who "killed Jesus". Yes, they were wrong about some things I wish I could change. But we owe them a lot for the liberties we now enjoy. They were right about a lot, too.
They did their best with what they knew. That is what I will do.
Yes it takes a lot of time and effort to participate in a blog like this. It may be worth it if Mark and Bo, Jeff and Mike, and Jordan and Sid all love YHWH and His word and are willing to try to understand each other's perspectives instead of holding out for their views.
Mike, Sid and Bo once held Jeff, Mark, and Jordan's view. They resisted many attempts from others trying to get through to them. One day YHWH opened their eyes to see what was impossible for them to agree to when they were stubbornly holding out for what was in their comfort zone. They had to count the cost. It was big. Are they great because of this? NO! They are more accountable. They realize more fully their sin and their pride.
Of course Mark, Jordan and Jeff think that it is prideful for Bo to talk like he just did, but they just might think that Bo, Mike, and Sid are the ones holding out for things in their comfort zone.
Proverbs 27 17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
Malachi 3 16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Bo, I appreciate what you are trying to say, I really do. Just a question (not an adversarial one, but a genuine question?). Could it be that I (we) are honestly contrained by God's Word with our views as opposed to just "holding out"? I would love to hold your view, I have nothing against it. I think we all need to be Bereans as well. When I take what I hear from Jim Staley and Messer I hear heresy at the foundation, but also really good stuff. I like listening to Messer, especially his Torah and government. But he is building a premise that most of the conservative, evangelical, reformation church has been deceived. What does he base it on? 3 or more heretics. That is a straw man. He says that Marcion, Origen and Constantine were key theologians that influenced the reformation. That is simply not true. Constantine was not even a theologian. The reformers doctrine DID lift up the law, unlike Marcion and Origen, etc. Yes, Messer needs this wrong view of church history to come across as correct. I think if you read the theology and confessions of the reformation, you'll find that Messer and company have a lot to offer if they work with them and not against them. Again, I think Messer has a lot to offer, but he is also falsely leading people away from the true church, not toward it. All I am asking is that you be just as critical of a listener to some of these guys as you are the "whole church". They are spewing some pretty bad theology just the same as well. Some bad theology does not matter, however, if it is built on a poor foundation, it is bad, and we need to be Bereans with what they are teaching as well. We need the Torah AND the New Testament. LAW AND GRACE in the context of the whole story. I don't believe YHWH would have us lift the Torah above the NT or to limit our theology ONLY to the first five books. jeffh
Jeff said: "I hear heresy at the foundation, but also really good stuff."
That reminds me of a scripture. Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against. Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
This was spoken to a Jewish audience just before the Gospel went out to all the nations(gentiles).
The word “sect ” is the same as heresy. We might quote the gruesome part of this text to one another. (Verse 26)
We can’t all be right.
Mark and Jeff, I accept your faith as genuine, your love as real, your godliness as sincere. There are lots of people I don't agree with. You are just some of them.
Have a good sabbath everybody. I guess no one is coming over. Sad.
I do not know much about either Jim Staley or (Ralph?)Messer. I would agree with you that we should not swallow whatever men say. I would also say that we should eat the fruit and spit out the seeds. Every good garden needs to have the weeds pulled on occasion. There may be others on this blog that can speak to Staley and Messer's teachings. I cannot. If it Ralph Messer that you are referring to, I cannot accept his approach very well...at least how he approached things 10 years ago. I know nothing of his new approach if it is different.
Trust me, I am a very critical listener of Messianic/Hebrew Roots preachers and teachers...at least to the very little I listen to. I could probably recite the names of 4 or 5 of these teachers. I would probably recognize 5 or 6 more if you spoke their names.
The way that I came to most of the ideas that I have posted is from personal study and personal interaction with other believers like Mike, Shannon, Barret, and Barret's father (Monty). If I hold to the same views that Messer, Staley, and other Hebrew roots teachers, it is not because they taught me. It is because I spent years in the scripture with a Bible program and a concordance. I was forced into this intensive study because of health issues. Unable to work and sometimes even walk, I lost myself and my pain by studying scripture to find our what it said. One interesting thing is that the reason that I developed the health issue that caused my scriptural education was that I overworked my self. No Sabbath.
I do not expect to convince you or Jordan or Mark. I hope that the scripture and discussion will set a fire in your spirit that can only be quenched by revelation from above...by the truth. We must not only seek the truth, but we must receive the love of the truth to be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
"The mystery of iniquity" (Lawlessness/lawbreaking) has been at work since creation. We are constantly being fed the lie that we shall not surely die if we disobey YHWH's commandments. Grace does not give us excuse to disobey. It gives us a new start...as if we had never disobeyed. It gives us the power and incentive to obey. It teaches us to obey. It takes us down the path to the tree of life.
"Deceivableness of unrighteousness" is rampant in the church. HalleluYah for the home school movement. The authority of fathers being restored by the spirit of Elijah is huge. The responsibility is huge too. Fathers must step up to the plate to love and learn the truth and teach it to their children.
"Stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught." Not the ones that apostate religion has taught. Not that denominations have taught. Not that 20th/21st century American Christianity has taught. The letters of the apostles declare obedience over and over, but we have passed over those statements in search of a false freedom that keeps us in bondage to sin, to iniquity, to unrighteous living. The scripture declares the same message from beginning to end.
Genesis 2 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Ecclesiastes 12 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Revelation 22 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
We choose the tree of live when we choose to obey YHWH's commandments. We choose death when we continue to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil by deciding for ourselves what is right and wrong...or even go along with the flow of man’s version of righteousness and morality.
Holiness has only to do with obedience. Whoever we obey, we are set apart to him. Our father is obvious. Our Husband is obvious. Our Master is obvious. It is obvious by whose Sabbath we keep and whose holy days we keep and whose diet we keep and whose wardrobe we wear. The things that have little or no connection to morality are the test of loyalty. The test of faith. Will we do things that do not make sense to us, or do we remain in our cultural and church comfort zone. Are we really children of Abraham if we stay where we are at doing the things that peers do? Will we answer the call to come out of our culture and comfort zone and be His people?
Revelation 18 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
2 Corinthians 6 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
There are still unclean things in the flesh and in the spirit. Will we accept YHWH’s judgment or stick to our own version of good and evil, right and wrong, clean and unclean? Will we live by the house rules and be His children, or remain in Babylon?
There are many commandments that are not for you or me. The ones pertaining to women, Levites, priests, etc. There are many commandments that YHWH has made impossible for us to keep. Temple offerings, tithing, ashes of the red heifer etc. There are many that can be kept. Celebrating YHWH's holy days and Sabbath, dietary laws, not murdering, not coveting, etc. We will not be accountable for not doing those that are not for us or impossible for us. We will be responsible for teaching all of it and doing all we can.
In the millennium, the temple will be rebuilt. Offerings will be offered. There will be a place to go to celebrate the feasts that has YHWH's name there again. Even the nations will be required to keep the feasts on pains of drought and plagues. We have the opportunity to joyfully obey YHWH now and be rewarded for it. If He didn't want us to keep His commandments, He would not promise greatness in the Millennial kingdom for doing and teaching them now. (Mat. 5:19)
Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God
ReplyDeleteRomans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
The Holy Bible : King James
That's my thoughts, but I have only begun studying this topic.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete2 John 5-6 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
ReplyDeleteMalachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
If we are told to follow the law in the old testament and also in the new testament, is it safe to assume that we are also supposed to follow it today? One of the laws was that we are to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16 says(16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.)If we are going to keep that law in the new Jerusalem Will we probably keep the others as well? I need to study it more though.
Those might or might not be my thoughts on circumcision, though I will not discount the health benefits. I just had to finish the verse. We can get into that topic later.
ReplyDeleteGalatians 3 : 23 -29 says
ReplyDeleteBut before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I have struggled over this subject myself, and I read through the New Testament and noted everything that Jesus said or quoted from the law, and I noticed that every one he mentioned were moral laws that we as followers should keep. Should we completely throw out what God told the Israelites not to eat or touch then? (Romans 3: 31) No, we can learn and examine it; before modern medicine was discovered the Hebrews were known for being some of the healthiest people in the world, this was because they followed the laws that they sometimes didn't understand. This is definitely not an issue of salvation though!
ReplyDeleteI like to know who I'm chatting with. So I see Carter and Zach. Who is the Wanttoknowtruth? :)
ReplyDeleteAn interesting thought about the life of Jesus Christ is that to be our perfect sacrifice He had to live a spotless life. Whose standard was the spotlessness measured against? Later, Jesus commanded us to be perfect as He (the Father)is perfect. (Matthew 5:48) You hear alot about the Pharisee's accusing Jesus of being "unlawful." But He always proved them wrong. It's an interesting thought. Just remember. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
ReplyDeleteMatthew 5:17-18
ReplyDeleteThink not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
In Luke 14:1 the pharisees condemn Yeshua for healing on the Sabbath. Yeshua rebukes them not for keeping the Sabbath, but for their man made laws of how to keep the Sabbath. This shows that Yeshua wasn't against the Sabbath, but against the traditions of men(Talmud, Mishnah,etc.).
Read Galatians 2 : 15 - 21, Romans 7, 1 Timothy 1: 8 - 11, Hebrews 8, and there is so many more - the Bible nails this topic! Please do not dismiss these verses.
ReplyDeleteIn Romans 7 : 4 - 6 " Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should were in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
ReplyDeleteSo help me to understand the logic of this view of Romans 7:4 and the concept of being dead to the law. If today I am a sinner there are actions which are unlawful (sin) to me, but if I get saved they are no longer unlawful and I can do them with impunity. I don't think that we have a proper understanding of this passage to arrive at this conclusion. I think we are dead to three aspects of the law. It's capacity to stir up sin in us, it's capacity to produce irremediable guilt feelings in us, and it's penalties, punishments and curses. But we need to understand that to remove the law and commandments of the "old" testament we need to disregard a lot of the new testament as obedience to the law is viewed as very important. 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous; Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteDid I write a conclusion? I believe I just wrote the verse.
ReplyDeleteReading your second statement I thought of
Romans 6 : 1, it says " What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
We become dead to the law so we can be joined with Christ!
Good verse Mr. Barber. We are dead to the law. But wait a minute which law are we dead to. Is it the law of sin and death or is the law which deals with commandments, statues and ord. Because if you do away with the second option, then there is no need for this one you call Jesus. Because it is through his grace and mercy that we are saved. But, saved from what, our sins or our iniquities which abound in us as Paul says. Yes we need a savior because we are sinners and break his fathers law. 1 john 3.4 and Matt 7:21. Futhermore the law of sin and death is what was nailed to the stake, not the commandments. Romans 3:31 Paul says we do not make void the law through faith, but we establish it. The law is good, and profitable, for teaching, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness. Amen! SLance
ReplyDeleteI have often asked myself that question, thank you for that comment. Can you tell what the difference is between the law and the commandments from Scripture? I seriously want to know.
ReplyDeleteThe real question here is, are we talking about "salvation" or "redemption?" Many of Paul's writings jump back and forth between these two issues and therein lies the confusion. Peter himself said that Pauls writings were easily misunderstood.(2 Peter 3:16) Lets look at one case in point. In Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas were having difficulties with some saved Pharisees in their churches. The Pharisees were claiming that the Gentile converts to be saved, needed to follow the entire law. Paul disagreed. They took their argument to Jerusalem and asked the apostles to settle it. James as the head apostle, gave this response,"We trouble not them which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto thsesem, that they abstain from pollution of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."(Acts 15:19-20) Now on the face, this looks like if we do these four things everything is fine. But lets take a look at the next verse."For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." These four issues were only mentioned as things which needed to be completely cleaned out of new believers lives immediately after salvation.(Remember the issue is salvation from the first verse of chapter 15) The rest of their walk or the process of redemption they would learn as they listened to Moses being read every sabbath.
ReplyDeleteI have been studying the issue of covenant, and so far this has been my conclusion. Sorry for the length :) Shalom--Orrin
Thank You for your comment Orrin. Now Mr. Barber, we as believers in Messiah have to consider some possible changes that have been handed down from our fathers. First, we as believers have a hard time excepted the fact that we need to follow commandments, especially if they are rooted from the old testament, but have they ever changed from old to new. When the Acts 15 verses were quoted up above that is a classic example of Torah being preached to the new believers. I don't believe their is a concrete difference between commandments and law. The law does three things, it shows us what sin is, pronounces cursings and blessings. Commandments are just a segment of the law that is found to be instructions for us to live righteously. Yes I believe we can be right with God. So if you go to Rev 12:17 and read who is protected from the dragon, those that have the testimony of Messiah and Obey his commandments. The Law is not our salvation and can not save us, this is what pharisees thought and messiah corrected them. That is also what legalism is. We as servants to the king are to obey Yahweh's commands and they are not grievous. I not sure if this all makes since. The law is the big picture of all things. Such as spoke about the law of sin and death, this particular law is judgement for those that broke torah and did not repent. thanks slance
ReplyDeleteThank you for spending your time trying to help me with some of my questions.
ReplyDeleteSam Barber, I hope and pray you can see I am not trying to place you under some old testament bondage of keeping the old law, the law is good and profitable. Romans 7 even talks about the law of sin and death and law of God. There is a difference, even in Rev. 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Also to note I believe you have to become a grated in Israel to enter into the kingdom. Rev 21:12 Thanks and if you are serious about understanding more keep in touch. Shalom slance
ReplyDeleteI have to tell you I find great error in one of your comments, if you have to become grafted into the family of Israel to enter the kingdom, why didn't Jesus emphasize that more or at all! What happens to the believing Gentiles?
ReplyDeleteRomans 10: 9 -13 says
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek; for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
The Bible talks about us being Grafted into the Family of God (Tree of Life), but where in Scripture does it say you have to become an Israelite to enter the Kingdom of God? Please help me understand where you are coming from. God Bless, Sam Barber.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTx5tjNQEvw&feature=channel_video_title
ReplyDeleteIf you can copy and paste this, its a great video about being grafted in.
Thanks, I will watch that.
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ReplyDeleteJordan, Before we get into a discussion lets lay our foundation as far as we can agree.
ReplyDelete1. Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.(John 3:16)
2. Jesus Christ and God are one.(1 John 5:7)
3. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8)
4. Nothing that is preached in the New Testament will contradict the Old Testament(Tanauch) (Acts 17:10-11)
Do you agree with these points?
This comment has been removed by the author.
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ReplyDeletehttp://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/45-50
ReplyDeleteThis is a message on Romans 7.
I listened to this on the road today. It really sums this WHOLE discussion up in my opinion.
After listening to this message I also believe that the law is good. I still have much to learn about the subject but this is a great starting point.
Please listen.
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/45-50
I am the new guy in the talk. hope you will accept a minnesotan.
ReplyDeleteWhy does this discussion begin with the apostle Paul's writing instead of in the beginning. Foundational things are ignored. The reason is because you are churched. Did you learn the instructions (Torah) of the creator in church? or did you learn the Bible from the perspective of Paul's Epistles? It was probably from a point of the New with out the foundation of the "old" Testament (Tanak). Everything is confusing if this is the way it is done.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Notice: (1) hard to understand; (2)unlearned; (3) destruction.
If we read Romans in light of Paul's own clarifications we will come up with different picture than when we start with the traditional Christian view. Below are a few of Paul's definitive statements that basically tell us what he was never wanting us to get out of what he taught and one passage that gives us his definition of to what it means to be carnal minded. I will break this up into a few posts.
ReplyDelete“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” (Rom. 7:7)
[YHWH’s law defines what is and is not sin. It cannot be wrong to do what it says to do. It has to be wrong when we fail to do what it says to do; because that would be sinning by Paul’s definition.]
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” (Rom. 6:1-2, 15)
ReplyDelete[Since sin is defined by the Law, breaking or transgressing the Law is sin. Grace does not allow us to continue to transgress YHWH’s rules in His Torah. If we are truly dead to sin and alive to YHWH, we will stop sinning/transgressing the Law. Grace is supposed to empower us by giving us a new starting place…as if we had never sinned/transgressed YHWH’s law. Our past transgressions do not count against us; so we can go forward with confidence. Without grace, there is no eternal reason to keep the law since we have already broken it with no hope of ever being able to make it up. With grace, we can be assured that our efforts to obey YHWH will be rewarded…if we let no man beguile us out of our reward with their doctrines and commandments of men.]
“Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.” (Rom. 7:12, 14)
[The law is not a bad thing. How did we ever come up with the idea that something that was breathed by our loving Heavenly Father was other than spiritual, holy, righteous, just and good for us? We have bad ideas about it because of our carnal thinking.]
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom.8:6-8)
ReplyDelete[When we do not want to do what the law says, we show that we are still carnal minded and that we are fighting against YHWH. If we renew our minds in the scripture and love YHWH’s instructions/Torah, we will begin to please YHWH by being obedient. Being subject to YHWH’s Torah is being spiritually minded. Rejecting His instructions in the Tanakh is indicative of a carnal mind.]
“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Rom. 3:31)
[Coming to faith does not exclude us from obeying YHWH’s instructions in His Torah; it empowers us to keep them because of grace. The law is established…it has a better foundation in our lives when we have repented for having broken it (sin), and received forgiveness. Now we can build with the gold, silver and precious stones of obedience instead of with the wood, hay and stubble of man’s ideas, traditions and philosophies that amount to disobedience.]
Being led by the Spirit to live a Christ like life when we realize that we cannot do ANYTHING to earn salvation is one thing.
ReplyDeleteBeing led by our own selves to say that we can somehow merrit or earn favor of God by following steps A , B and C is another thing altogether.
What is our strength ? Ourselves ? Or Christ within us ?
I assume that a "Christlike" life is a holy/sanctified life. We should be sanctified the way that our Messiah was and His apostles were. By living out the instructions in YHWH the Father's word. We are the ones that believe because of their word...aren't we?
ReplyDelete“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;” (John 17:17, 19-20)
The Father and the Son are one. They do not have conflicting commandments. The Spirit will not lead us to break YHWH's law or ignore it. He reminds us of YHWH's words.
“I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30)
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you." (John 16:13-15)
He will not speak of Himself. HE is the Spirit of truth...The Father's word is the truth that the Son is speaking of. He will say the same things that the Father and Son say. The Son said:
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mat. 5:19)
Obedience to YHWH's instructions is not about obtaining salvation. It is about being faithful to the one that saved us. It brings great reward.
"And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." (Luke 4:4)
ReplyDeleteAre we men? Do we live by every word of YHWH or just the ones that we like? Of just the ones that our church likes? Of just the ones that make sense to us or our culture? Every word means every word. The only words available at the time of Y'shua quoting this was what we call the "Old testament." It doesn's say that Jews should live by every word of YHWH...it says mankind should. Not to gain salvation, but because we are saved.
Y'shua didn't keep His Fathers word to become righteous. He kept it because He was righteous. The same should be the case with us. Are we really righteous if we do not do righteousness?
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:4-7"
Continuing to transgress the law of YHWH proves that we are not righteous. It proves that we are deceived.
4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a NEW COVENANT, NOT of the LETTER but of the SPIRIT; for the letter KILLS, but the Spirit GIVES LIFE.
ReplyDelete7 But if the ministry of death, in R99 letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
The above passage is - 2 Corinthians 3:4-18
ReplyDelete"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jer. 31:31-33)
ReplyDeleteNow do not forget that the NEW COVENANT writes the same law of YHWH on our hearts that was written on stone. The law does not change...until heaven and earth pass away...at least according to Messiah. (Mat. 5:17-19) Also, do not forget that the NEW COVENANT is made with ISRAEL. We must be grafted/adopted into Israel to partake of this covenant with YHWH. We are no longer gentiles.
"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;" (Eph. 2:11-13,19)
We WERE strangers to the covenants of promise, but now we ARE no more strangers. We have joined the commonwealth of Israel so that we can be partakers of YHWH's covenants.
"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:2-3)
ReplyDelete"when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it? But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil." (Deut. 30:10-15)
His law is not too hard for us if we allow it to be written on our hearts. YHWH's sets life and good before us. Will we continue to reject His commandments that prove that we love Him or turn to Him with all our hearts. The Spirit does give life, by causing us to love YHWH's law and by empowering us to keep it. The letter can only condemn us for not keeping YHWH's law. Having His law written on our hearts means that we love it and want to do it. If we do not want to do it, we have carnal minds.
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom.8:6-8)
Somebody say, "Ouch!"
ReplyDeleteOUCH!!! :)
ReplyDeleteThanks Tyler :)
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ReplyDeleteThe Spirit does give life, by causing us to love YHWH's law and by empowering us to keep it. The letter can only condemn us for not keeping YHWH's law. Having His law written on our hearts means that we love it and want to do it. If we do not want to do it, we have carnal minds.
ReplyDelete“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom.8:6-8)
Do you know YHWH's Torah and want to do it? Is your mind subject to the law? If not...OUCH!
Hello Orrin! Tyler told me to check out your new blog. I am so thrilled to hear about all the changes happening in your family and your desire and hunger for Truth. You obviously are asking the right questions and trying to find the right answers.
ReplyDelete2Timothy 2:15 Do your utmost to present yourself approved to Elohim, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly handling the Word of Truth.
I will keep you and your family in my prayers, praying for wisdom and strength to stand for Truth and be diligent in your pursuit of it.
I am sorry if the above sounds harsh. That is not my intention. I just mean to show that we should study the Scriptures that Peter and Paul referred to. Now what did they call the scriptures? If we are to be learned and stable, let us study what they studied. The Tanak is the Instruction, Prophets, and Writings (Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim =TNK "TaNaK"). I like that better than the Old Testament. Old sounds like "out of date and replaced". I can't say that if it is not "old". The Tanak is where we get learning and stability to keep from the error of the wicked (lawless) and from falling away. You guys have a good discussion going. I deeply love the Torah and the Commands found therein.
ReplyDeleteComment on Bo's 2:56 pm post today. I so often here Christians say that the old testament laws were there to prove that no one could obey them all and be righteous, and therefor the pupose of the Law was to show the people their need for a savior, once He came there was no longer a need to keep the laws of the old testament. (I believed that lie myself for so long but PRAISE YHWH my eyes have been opened and I can see clearly now). Here is a scripture verse I want to share with all reading that sheds some light on how false that belief is.
ReplyDeleteLuk 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herodes, the sovereign of Yehuḏah, a certain priest named Zeḵaryah, of the division of Aḇiyah. And his wife was of the daughters of Aharon, and her name was Elisheḇa. And they were both righteous before Elohim, blamelessly walking in ALL the commands and righteousnesses of YHWH.
Taken from The Scriptures. (version I prefer to use).
You are right Bo, "His law is not too hard for us if we allow it to be written on our hearts. YHWH's sets life and good before us. Will we continue to reject His commandments that prove that we love Him or turn to Him with all our hearts. The Spirit does give life, by causing us to love YHWH's law and by empowering us to keep it." (I thought it was worth repeating). I have seen this play out in my life. When I believed that I could never be righteous and live free of sin, I was caught in a cycle of sin, repent, sin, repent...and I felt far from The LORD, ashamed and sick, eventhough, "I believed" on the LORD Jesus Christ and "loved" HIM. If that was all I needed to do to be saved why did I constantly struggle with sin and constantly during that time feel such a heavy hand of conviction. I was bond to the law of sin and death until I saw clearly my need not just for a savior but my need to obey all of HIS commandments, and walk righteously. I was only set free by TRUTH, the TRUTH found in YHWH's WORD (ALL of IT). I know I am not walking perfectly righteously yet, because I have just begun to study Torah, I have much to learn. But I finally know what GRACE truly is, I finally feel free from sin. His Grace is sufficient to help us when we are tempted, so that we have the power by the gift of the Holy Spirit not to sin but to choose the way out that YHWH always gives us when we tempted. And The Law is there to show us what sin is, so that we are not ignorant to HIS will. The Laws are a Loving Fathers instructions to HIS beloved children. His Laws are for our good. We are blessed by them if we understand them and obey.
Psalm 119:1 Blessed are the perfect in the way, who walk in the Torah of YHWH.
Just out of curiosity , do you guys believe that all of Pauls writings are the inspired word or God ? If not then is a lot of the new testament incorrect ?
ReplyDeletePlease try for a yes or no answer on this one.
Thanks
Jordan
Along with what MinnesotaMike said (Hi Mike!) here is a quote taken from Brad Scott's Teaching "Words of Elohiyim" found on his website (wildbranch.org):
ReplyDeleteThe terms that we read in the New Testament were not created in a vacuum. Virtually every word or words that you read have their beginning and defining in the Tanakh. When Yeshua‘ or any of the writers wrote their words, they did so with full confidence that the readers were already familiar with the words they chose to convey ’Elohiym's ways. When Yeshua‘ said, "Be not afraid, only believe", He used a term already well established in the Tanakh as to it's meaning. The word 'believe' did not pop up from nowhere in the New Testament! He assumed a previous knowledge of this word. When He uses the terms; kingdom, life, light, righteousness, way, truth, receive, bind, loose, come together, or worship, for example, He assumes we know what these things mean from our knowledge of His previous words.
We need to use the TaNaK writings to define words and concepts in the New Testament. It is a mistake to use how our modern western culture defines words and concepts when trying to make sense of what Messiah was saying, what He was truly teaching. Without an understanding of the TaNaK, and the hebrew culture at that time and their knowledge base of the TaNaK, we cannot truly understand the New Testament.
So you are saying "no" Andrea ? Please yes or no to my question. Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay.
ReplyDeleteOrrin- as far as the question Law needed or not? Just read Psalm 19. Sums it up. Who can argue with that. I for one need the Law. I am a hopeless wreck without it.
ReplyDeleteMy question anyone ? Yes or no.
ReplyDeleteThanks Andrea
Jordan, the answer to your question is yes, Paul's writings are inspired. 1 Timothy 3:16 says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
ReplyDeleteBut having said that, do you believe in the inerrancy of scripture. If the Bible is inerrant, and I believe that it is, then if we read it in such a way that it is in conflict with itself, such as setting the Old Testament against the New Testament, then I believe that we have an improper understanding of the Bible. As a student of Gamaliel, Paul had the entire Tanakh committed to memory. So we can assume that when he used a word or phrase in his writings that we find in the Old Testament it probably should be considered to have the same or similar meaning.
Following the Torah does not save us, but I would like to know what part or parts of what God said is good in His word that you do not want to do.
Sid
Jordan, my comment was not a reply to your question. I was writing before you posted. Did not see your question until now.
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ReplyDeleteSo was it just Pauls own personal comments or reflections of the Tanakh on what was revealed to him? or was EVERY WORD inspired by God in the very moment he was writing it?
ReplyDeleteIs it safe to say that the Hebraic Roots Movement leads people to doubt Pauls writings?
I would ask why?
Does Paul say some things that are controversial?
Yeah. He Does.
It is not as easy as saying yes or no. I for one, believe that Paul was a wise man inspired by the Holy SPirit and his writings are commentaries. They are not incorrect, but they have been misinterpreted often. And much has been lost in meaning due to improper translation and false teaching. When understood properly they do not contradict the Truth of the Old Testament (or TaNaK) writings.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWell, I for one don't know about the Hebraic roots movement. I am not part of that. I am just reading scriptures, praying for Holy Spirit to give me wisdom as I do, and I dedicated to reading it with new eyes, not with everything that was taught to me by mainstream christianity blurring my vision. I am not looking for any Hebrew Roots, just roots of TRUTH.
ReplyDeleteI think the Church relys to heavily on their misinterpretations of Paul's letters. And they Follow it.
ReplyDeleteI don't follow one man. Paul is not my God. I am a lot more concerned with what Messiah taught.
Most teachings I have found as I have begun studying Torah, do not lead anyone to doubt Pauls writings, they break them down, explain them and clarify them. I have come to a better understanding of Pauls' letters. Not to Doubt them. I think Jordan, you are clumping some of us up into an assumption that we are part of the Hebrew Roots Movement, but we are not. We are just people who are studying the WORD with a desire to understand the times, culture, language, it was written in, to gain a clearer understanding of it. If any part of the Word seems to contradict any other part of the WOrd than it is clearly not being interpreted or understood right. The LORD would not contradict HIMSELf, The SOn would not contradict the Father and the HOly SPirit would Not contradict the Father. And if The LORD never changes, and TRUTH is absolute, then what The Father said was Truth Once is Always Truth.
ReplyDeleteOrrin- I know you asked that everything be backed up by 2 verses. I am sleepy so, I will find verses tomorrow to back up everything I expressed tonight.
ReplyDeleteJordan if your interested I recommend watching some 119 Ministry videos. Pauline Paradox is a good one. It explains Paul's letters, not leading to doubt but leading to greater understanding.
can find them on testeverything.net
I think that all of Paul's writings are true. They are scripture. They are inspired. They do not contradict Torah. If they did they would not be scripture.
ReplyDeleteIsaiah 8
20 To the law and to the testimony (10 commandments): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Of course, I think that James, Peter, John, Luke, Matthew, Mark and Jude are all scripture too. I have found that anything that I think is a contradiction is not when studied out and the details paid close attention to.
Sid, are the "Good" things you are talking about of FAITH? The law is good for bringing us to knowledge of sin, BUT FOLLOWING OF THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.
ReplyDeleteJordan,
ReplyDeleteDo you have 2 scriptures to back up your above post?
Romans 8 basically the whole chapter and Galatians 3:12.
ReplyDeleteIn Romans a distinction is made between the "Law of the Flesh" and the "Law of the Spirit".
I find it interesting that this WHOLE discussion can be summed up in ACTS 15. This is the same issue that the early church was facing. What is the verdict in this chapter?
Is it really summed up there? Acts 15:19-20 says "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
ReplyDelete20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Is that really all that is required? Am I then free to murder? or to steal at will?
In three different situations Jesus gave three different responses. To the woman caught in adultery after saying let he who is without sin cast the first stone, he told her that he did not condemn her but to stop the way she was living. To Nicodemus he said, "You must be born again." To Nicodemus education was a stronghold and this caught him off guard as he could not understand how this could be effected. To the rich young ruler he said "Sell all that thou hast and give to the poor." He had much goods and could not give it up and so walked away. Do you think that any one of these responses or the four in Acts 15:19 is a stand alone recipe for salvation?
God wants to be first in our lives. Look up what Jesus said what was the greatest commandment. He quoted right out of Deut. 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (Oops, Old Testament, doesn't apply)
But back to Acts 15, if you look at the next verse (21) you see that what Paul had said in the two preceding verses apparently hit these people right where they were living and if they chose to follow Christ verse 21 says "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."
They would learn the rest of the law as they were taught weekly inthe synagogue.
Let me say once again that we can by no means gain salvation by our works. But James says that faith without works is dead, and in another place in the Bible it says "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Use a little logic there and see where it leads.
I think Paul gets to the crux of the matter in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
What do we desire to build with?
And the passage that probably gives me the greatest pause is Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
"Ye that work iniquity" is from the Greek "Lawbreakers." These people were not trying to bluff their way into heaven. They thought that they had it made. But whether they "gained the whole world but lost their soul," (could Biblically justify all the fun that the world has to offer) or had been mislead by incorrect teaching form their childhood or whatever else may have been the issue, God sent them away. Scary, huh?
This issue is very serious. Are we living for the flesh? We will of the flesh reap corruption. Are we living for God? He will reward us with eternal life.
Keep growing.
Sid
Jordan, do Paul's writings teach you to obey everything commanded in the Torah? If yes, then they are inspired. The inspiration is hard to prove. The proof is in the fruit that is produced.
ReplyDeleteAre you afraid to let go of all your security? We don't hate Paul. We are obviously very acquainted with his writings. We are just firmly convinced that if he is right then he will not tear down the established rule of God's word. So we look for his words to be in harmony with the breadth of Scripture. That is a good test for all Bible Study.
Paul never would oppose what Sid and Bo and Andrea are "pushing". Namely Obedience to the Law.
My answer to your question is going to be no for a different reason. Peter and Paul did not think what they wrote was on the scale of Scripture! 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Tim 3:16
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Paul did not tell Tim to follow his teachings but the Scripture (TaNaK).
Jordan, now going back to another issue...
ReplyDeleteI want to tell you there are two kinds of laws that might be referred to in the writings of Paul. (1) is the Holy, perfect law of liberty spoken of by James and others; (2) the list of endless rules added by Pharisees and others trying to control religion and politics and people and even God.
Now, either Paul loves YHWH and His written Torah or he does not. He is not a psychotic lunatic.
Look at Gal 2:23. What in the world! Does this mean that YHWH shut people in a corner with no hope? Can that be?
It cannot be, so we must try for a different interpretation.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
How do you faithfully read "but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." in the above?
Here is mine--> Doing the law apart from faith is death. Doing the law in faith is life.
As to the second kind of law I referred to... stuff that shuts people in with no hope. Many things were added to the Torah by Jews in the Talmud like never eating meat and milk. I don't ascribe to that. But did you know that the Torah forbids incest? Teaches tithing? Respect for elders? Faithfulness in the marriage bed? I think there is Life in the Torah. Please read it.
Don't be like Jannes and Jambre.
2Ti_3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
You do not have to do anything to be "saved". But how then shall you live? I say embrace Moses and fill up the teaching of the Law with the Teaching of Y'shua as in the Sermon on the Mount Mat 5-7. You agree with that if you quote Acts 15. Do those basic things having to do with idol worship and then go to the synagog to learn what Moses says.I think that is what Sid says, too.
Again, if Paul can be seen as scriptural, He must agree with the breadth of Scripture. He kept Torah, He taught others to do likewise. He is great in the Kingdom.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I will be called great in the kingdom,too. I am doing them and teaching them. That does not save me. Sound arrogant? No, just true. According to this verse what will you be called?
I say to all: Stop your idolatry and read the Torah on the Sabbath. That sums up Acts 15.
ReplyDeleteAct 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
I am very thankful that the whole Bible is preserved for us from Genesis to Revelation. So now we can study it. Thanks to YHWH and all the hard working faithful men who have lived and died for the Bible.
Let us do our best to do our duty to our heavenly Father and our families, neighbors and all those who will live after we are gone to study it diligently and pass it on to the next generation.
Orrin, I recognize the purpose of your blog. Be Bereans!
Shalom, Michael
There is no Gal 2:23. It is 3:23. I am sorry. Thanks Shannon.
ReplyDeleteGal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Michael
I noticed in my posts I have some letters in words capitalized and some not, that was not intentional, I just type to quickly.
ReplyDeleteI decided I will not be posting comments, just reading through what you men are writing and I will pray for wisdom to be shared on this site, I am sure that is Orrins intentions for it. I pray TRUTH will shine forth.
I believe that women have a place in the body of believers that is important, but it is not to be part of scriptural discussions and debates in the assembly. (1 Cor. 14:34-35) I realized last night that this site is in a way an assembly of brothers, albeit an online assembly, it still constitutes an assembly.
I am thankful for you men that love the Creator and HIS word and are dedicated to teaching others. I hope this site makes a difference in the lives of those who truly want to know The Creator intimately and walk in HIS ways. Hear and obey.
James 1:16-25 Do not go astray, my beloved brothers.
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of turning.
Having purposed it, He brought us forth by the Word of truth, for us to be a kind of first-fruits of His creatures. So then, my beloved brothers, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath, for the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of Elohim.
Therefore put away all filthiness and overflow of evil, and receive with meekness the implanted Word,1 which is able to save your lives. And become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Because if anyone is a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror, for he looks at himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what he was like. But he that looked into the perfect Torah, that of freedom,1 and continues in it, not becoming a hearer that forgets, but a doer of work, this one shall be blessed in his doing of the Torah.
Blessings to you brothers!
By the way, I was not saying that I did not believe Paul's writings were not scripture. I do believe they are scriptures. I belive he was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and therefor his writings are. I meant commentaries, only meaning they are his comments, letters, making it different then say the writings on the tablets that were written by the hand of YHWH (THE LORD).
ReplyDeleteJordan,
ReplyDeleteThere are two ways to walk.
Philippians 3
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
So...how did Paul walk? Who are the enemies of the cross of Messiah? We will see.
Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
You mentioned Romans 8 as a passage that proves your point. Let us look at the a few verses in Romans 8.
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[There is condemnation if we do not walk in the Spirit.]
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[The law if sin and death is: the soul that sinneth it shall die. (Eze.18:20) How does the law of the Spirit of life free us from this? By keeping us from sinning. What is sin? Transgression of the law.(Rom.7:7;1 John3:2)]
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[The Torah cannot stop us from sinning because our flesh is weak. The Torah is perfect. It tells us what things are sin and what things are righteous. It tells us how to be holy and what things defile us. Messiah's death gave us a fresh start by wiping out our past sins.(Rom.3:25)]
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[The righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us is us doing what the law says. Messiah's sacrifice frees us from sin not to sin. If we continue to sin (transgress the law) we are walking in the flesh not walking in the Spirit.]
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[How do we know if we are after the flesh? Next verse.]
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[If we are carnally minded we are after the flesh. What is a carnal mind? Next verse.]
To be continued.
Continued from above.
ReplyDelete7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[The carnal mind is one that refuses to be subject to YHWH's Torah. It is at war with YHWH and His instructions. This person cannot keep the law. The Spirit led man does fulfill/keep the law according to verse 4 above.]
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
[Those that are in the flesh have carnal minds that fight tooth and nail against the idea of keeping YHWH's law. The cannot please YHWH. Those that are truly being led by the Spirit keep His Torah and are pleasing children to Him. Do we want to continue to be children of disobedience?
Ephesians 5
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Let no man deceive you. He that doeth righteousness is righteous. He that transgresseth the law/sinneth is of the devil. Do not deceive yourself. Do not just be a hearer of the word.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Who are the enemies of the cross of Messiah? Those that continue in sin/transgression of the law and that teach others to continue to break it. The devil sinneth/trasgresseth the law from the beginning. We are his children if we continue in our transgression of YHWH's law. Messiah came to put a stop to sin/transgression of YHWH's law. If we truly abide in him, His Spirit will empower us to keep YHWH's law. He that abideth in Him sinneth not. He that transgresseth the law, hath not seen Him and does not know Him.
Shalom
Please note that the "eth" ending in the KJV denotes continuous action. One who sins is different than one who sinneth. He that sinneth is one that continues to transgress the law. When we transgress the law and repent from it, we do not sinneth.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePaul wrote Romans 8 to believers. John wrote 1 John to believers. James wrote James to believers. They did not want believers to be deceived into having faith without works or in thinking that disobedience to YHWH's law was acceptable for believers. How does a believer deal with the scriptures that I posted?
ReplyDeleteThe words that the apostles wrote about believers being deceived should be taken seriously. The demons are believers...but what good does it do without obedience to the scripture?
James 2
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
There are four major options that explain disobedience to the Torah.
1) The person is not a true believer.
2) The believer is rebelling against YHWH's authority in his life.
3) The believer is deceived into thinking that he does not need to obey YHWH's commandments.
4) The believer is ignorant of what the Torah says.
If we are participants in the New Covenant we are to have YHWH's law written on our hearts and minds. In practical terms this means that we love His law and we know His law. It is not some automatic or magic thing that is perpetrated upon us. We must be willing and diligent. Ignorance of what YHWH commands is only acceptable for the amount of time it takes to learn His law. Deception is only an excuse until we have been shown the passages that show our deception. Rebellion is never acceptable.
Being carnal minded is curable. Being deceived is difficult to realize...that is why it is called deception...it tricks us. Once we have been shown the deception, we need to repent and start being doers of the word, or we will fall back into deception...and ultimately rebellion. And faith without works is dead. It cannot save us.
James 2
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
You may be a true hearted believer. You may be a young believer. You may be an ignorant believer. You may even be a deceived believer. All these may be saved in the end, but rebellious believers are unfaithful believers and they are cast out of the kingdom.
Shalom
My response above was to this:
ReplyDelete"So, after reading these comments, I feel the need to ask - if we say we are believers and are not following the laws and commandments from the Torah(as you say you are doing) are we not truly belivers?
Thank you,
Grace "
Grace,
It would be good if you stop writing things that you then remove all the time. Let your yea be yea and your nay, nay. Get a hold of your emotions and stand to what you say.
Shalom
Correct me if im wrong but the law that is written on our hearts is not that law given in the old testament but that which we all experience through our consciences which Jesus brought to us while he was among us.
ReplyDeleteThe law that Jesus presented deals with things of the Spirit and superceeds the law given by Moses which deals with things of the flesh.
I apologize but i dont have my Bible with me currently but I know this to be true from scripture.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJordan,
ReplyDeleteI am correcting you. Here is the New Covenant passage:
Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Nothing in the passage above says that YHWH's law is somehow different than it always was. What He calls His law is His law. It cannot change until heaven and earth pass away.
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Shalom
Bo. As my wife GRACE and I read through this blog and seek to grow in our current walks with Christ we both have realized that we write things every once in a while that may not come across as lovingand concerned for those of us that are strugling.
ReplyDeleteI would really appreciate an apology to my wife.
Respectfully ,
Jordan
Just jumping in late. If that is ok, could I comment on Jer. 31?
ReplyDeleteHermenuetically, there are two covenants in the OT. The Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic covenant. If you read this text closely, esp in Hebrew, you will see that the one the Israelites broke was the Mosaic Covenant (e.g. 10 commandments, etc) which was bi-lateral OR two-way.
When Yahweh says He will put the Covenant upon their hearts, that is the Abrahamic Covenant and the word new in Hebrew means "renewed" which means all of what it was plus more. This Covenant is and always was Unilateral or ONE way. Check Gen. 15 for that: God walked between the cut meat when? When Abram was asleep. One way.
When you read Christ back into this Covenant, scripture fits together really well. Whenever Israel failed, Moses would say to Yahweh, "remember your Covenant, etc." This was the Abrahamic Covenant. Because Israel was unable to keep the Mosaic laws they were condemned. That is why they needed the Abrahamic Covenant to save them: Genesis 12:1-3 jeffh
Jan 5, 8:43 AM, Bo writes, "Those that are truly being led by the Spirit keep His Torah and are pleasing children to Him."
ReplyDeleteMy response, "I half agree, but since this is a foundational tenet of Christianity - i.e. being Spirit led - it is worth cleaning up a bit or it can lead to the exact opposite conclusion that I believe Bo is honestly trying to do.
Respectfully, I would say it like this,
"Those that are truly being led by the Spirit are in Christ who kept the Torah or Law FOR US and are pleasing children to Him because of Christ, We ALL fail miserably at keeping the law, which is why Christ came. He lived the law in our place and died our death in our place (substitutionary atonement).
We follow the law as a result NOT as a means to be less condemned by God. There is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ. The law shows us our failure and always drives us to Christ to continually receive His grace and forgiveness. That is where our power to live a godly life and delight in His law comes from.
John 3:18, "we were already condemned by the law, Christ came to save us by fulfilling it for us, so God is only pleased with us because He is pleased with Christ.
jeffh
jeffh
From Jan 4 - 11:45 PM, Sid writes, "Is it really summed up there? Acts 15:19-20 says "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
ReplyDelete20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Is that really all that is required? Am I then free to murder? or to steal at will?
My response, "Again, I would challenge the question as misleading. When he asks, 'am I free to murder?' misses the whole point of the context of Acts 15. If you read earlier they are taking up the question of whether Gentiles who are coming to believe in Christ are required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. This is NOT referring to the laws written on our hearts (Jer 31), which include murder. When the Jews heard the phrase, "circumcision and the law of Moses" they would have heard all the Messianic prophecy with that. That is why, in verses 16-18, James calls up that as a fulfillment of prophecy by the Messiah. This was fairly new to them because in the days of Amos, the Israelites saw the Messiah as "yet to come", but the apostles here now see the Messiah as Jesus "has come". So, once the actual fulfillment of the prophecy has arrived, then the external observances begin to fall off. All that remains is the internal law which is a higher law in Christ. This helps make contextual sense out of Acts 15:19-20. Notice that what was very important to the believers in Messiah BEFORE he came so they could understand DID NOT include things like keeping Saturday as Sabbath or feasts. Those were necessary because Messiah had not come. The content is still necessary (in our hearts, Christ), so now we see the Sabbath as Christ and worship Him EVERY DAY, not just one day a week. And we do this FOREVER, which lines up perfectly with the Old Testament.
This is why I would support what Sid is saying except that I would caution the mixing of the One way Covenant of remembering Christ in our hearts and the higher laws with the ceremonial and external laws like certain days and feasts (Col 2) which were meant to show us the eternal Christ, not the other way around. Torah leads to Christ, not Christ leads to Torah.
Yeshua bless you, jeffh
jeffh
Jordan and Grace,
ReplyDeletePlease know that I meant no offense. I spoke as a brother and an elder.
The fact remains that writing something and then removing it is not showing honor and politeness to the others on this blog. If you think that you have written something that you shouldn't have, apologize for it...but leave the comment up so that we do not have to explain what we were answering. Please be considerate when you write so that you will not have to apologize so much. If you make a mistake, fix it. It comes across as prideful or immature if you are constantly removing posts. It looks like you are not being slow to speak and quick to hear. It looks like an emotional response.
Jordan, if you allow your wife the liberty to post when you are not present to oversee her, you need to allow her to be reprimanded for her offenses. If you want to absolve her of the things she says or vows on the day that you hear of it, that is in accordance with the scripture. It is not in accordance with the scripture for you to take up another's offense. As Grace's head, are you going to apologize for her or have her apologize for her lack of consideration?
We have taken up enough time on this excursion. Please forgive us, everybody.
We should be patient with each others mistakes. Do not try to cover you sins...confess them.
Proverbs 28
13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Shalom
Could i by chance email you about this Bo?
ReplyDeleteOrrin. Hows it going ? Apologies for letting the discussion stray off topic. Its pretty typical in any blog.
So what are you thinking Jordan? After reading all this is it beginning to tie together? I have not studied it as much, so everything from both sides has been enlightening. Just remember it's a lifelong journey.
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDeleteI must take issue with your proposal that the some how Jeremiah is switching gears in the middle of his discussion of the New Covenant. He is speaking of YHWH's law, not the covenant with Abraham. We all know what law that meant to Jeremiah. We know what that meant to Messiah. We know what that meant to Paul.
The same law that Israel, and us for that matter, have broken is supposed to be written on our hearts. That is idiomatic language for us loving it. The transformed spirit that comes at conversion causes us to say, "what soever YHWH says, that I will do."(Exo.19:8) We commit before we know everything that he commands. We trust Him.
The problem arises when we are convinced by the doctrines of men that YHWH's law is now void. Paul disagrees with this doctrine. So does Y'shua.
Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Titus 1
14 Not giving heed to...commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Mark 7
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men...
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition...
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
If what you say is true, Paul should have stopped keeping the law. He didn't.
Acts 21
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Acts 25
8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Shalom
Bo, all those verses are fine if your starting point is on. That is all I am saying. I respectfully disagree with your starting point. I would encourage you to read Hebrews; esp chapter 8. There is clearly two covenants, one is Moses (led them out of Egypt) in verse 9, which is quoting Jer 31 and then we have a new covenant fulfilled in Christ which is repeated throughout the Old Testament, so it had to have a beginning before the New Testament. Plus it was superior to Moses. Also check the context - Heb 6:13 through 7:22 - I hope you'll admit that is about Christ, a better covenant, not Moses.
ReplyDeletejeffh
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI know that there is a new covenant, but the law of YHWH is the law of YHWH. In the first covenant His law was written on stone. In the New Covenant it is to be written on our hearts. The writer of Hebrews states that YHWH found fault with "them"...the people, not with His law which is perfect. The new covenant allows us direct access to YHWH's Spirit instead of having to have priests teach us what it says. The law does not change until heaven and earth pass away. The place that it is written changes.
The law written on our hearts and personal access to YHWH was offered to Israel and they refused to continue to listen for themselves, thus relinquishing their priesthood.
Exodus 19
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
The levitical system was then established, by their request, so that they could learn YHWH's law which they did not want to hear directly from YHWH.
Deuteronomy 5
23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
24 And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
30 Go say to them, Get you into your tents again.
O that there was a heart in US that WE would obey YHWH's commandments always. That is what the New Covenant is supposed to accomplish. So it was prophesied that YHWH would raise up a prophet/Messiah that would reestablish the priesthood of the believer.
To be continued.
Continued from above.
ReplyDeleteDeuteronomy 18
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
The same gospel of being YHWH's priests and ruling with Him that was offered to them is now offered to us.
Hebrews 3
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
1 Peter 2
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
Revelation 5
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
We can continue to stumble at the word and be disobedient because we have not mixed what we have heard with faith or we can accept the gospel of the kingdom and start learning and obeying YHWH's law.
We are supposed to believe Moses forever. (Exo.19:9) Moses wrote down YHWH's law for us so we have no excuse for not knowing it and doing it. If we continue to neglect YHWH's law we will lose our priesthood also. If we continue to disobey we will lose our kingship.
Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
1 Samuel 15
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Shalom
We agree on the law. The law is the law.
ReplyDeleteWhat you are not understanding (or not agreeing with) is the importance of the Abrhamic Covenant and how it relates to Christ. Jesus said at the Last Supper, this is the new covenant, etc..... Remember Me.......
What is this pointing to? Jer 31 and on and on back to the Abrahamic covenant (which is really rooted from the entrance of sin in Gen 3:15 - later on that).
So, we agree on ALL the verses you quoted about the Law judging and condemning us, but it is the ROLE of the law that we part. Even Rabbi Messer agrees with me, that the law does not justify.
The way you are using the law (and I respect your intentions) is that it is superior to Christ. I am saying just the opposite. The Torah, Mosaic covenant, etc. condemns us; always because it fails to save us. So, where you would lead me back to the law to try harder, I would lead you straight to the cross where you depend and trust in the New Covenant OR renewed Covenant because it was Christ all along.
The approach you are taking starts with Christ and has us try to fulfill the law or Torah; the approach I am taking starts with the law or Torah and is fulfilled by Christ FOR US.
So, for your comments about losing our priesthood. Well, we are only priests because of what Christ did through the law; so again, the law does it's job in showing us our sin and falling short, but if you don't get to Christ and the cross from there you can only go back to the law and try to be justified by trying harder "this time".
Finally, then I'll pause.... We need to start with the two covenants and agree there or we aren't going to get very far. Do you see two covenants?
jeffh
To answer Orrin's question. What does it mean to be a Jew?
ReplyDeleteScripture obviously points to the Jews as the Chosen people of God. They are the group that He made covenants with and they are the people to whom He gives things first that they might share it and be bearers of it to the rest of the world.
Romans 2:16 KJV
Story's about covenants?
Matt 28:26 - Talks about the new one.
Who wrote this passage? What are your thoughts?
Heb 8:6-13
6. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away
This is a great resource to learn more about this all.
Its about 1 hr but it's worth it.
http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/47-15/the-glory-of-the-new-covenant-part-1
Praying that Christ will continue to strengthen our minds in Him, and keep our hearts focused on pure truth.
Jordan
Amen, Jordan. The new covenant is in His blood which connects back to Jer 31 and back to Abraham.
ReplyDeletejeffh
Greetings Jordan and all,
ReplyDeleteI am excited to see so many young men and some old (jeff) quoting and studying the scriptures. Jordan I am blessed you are in the word and I remember the day we were playing football in the backyard and now you are a man of God encouraging others.
First, the covenants were not given to the Jews they were given to Israelites.
Secondly there is no Matt. 28:26.
Lastly, most people believe that Hebrews were written by the apostle Paul. Paul quotes alot of the old testament, such as this passage which comes from Jer. 31:31. Which is not a abrahamic covenant, but a Torah covenant. Read, his Torah in our heart it says. Yahweh has had only one Torah, not two or three. Every covenant has been built on the next.
A verse I quoted to my family this week that is so misquoted. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou has rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the torah (law) of thy God, I will also forget the children. Hosea 4:6
Knowledge comes from the word or Torah. Proverbs says seek wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Proverbs 4:5 Do you remember when your dad had the proverbs for cash program in your home. Well, I just think of all those verses you memorized.
Proverbs 3:1-2 "My son forget not my law, but let thine heart keep my commandments. For length of days and long life and peace shall they add to they."
Blessing to you Jordan and Grace. your long friend shannon Lance
Hey Jordan, I wanted to comment on your post for the reason that I have heard several people use that particular passage and I believe they are pulling it out of context. I had the great opportunity to study that passage with some friends recently and we wanted to find the beginning and the end of Paul's train of thought, and it begins at chapter 8 and continues through the end of 10. I wanted to throw you some verses but you have to read and study all three chapters to gain an understanding of what Paul is trying to convey. It is very helpful when you realize that he is referring to the blood sacrifices and priestly duties throughout those chapters as being fulfilled.
ReplyDeleteApologies for quoting the wrong reference.Funny thing. I even looked it up that way at first. Should be 26:28
ReplyDeleteJordan
Jeff, I will think out loud for a bit... The role of the Torah and the role of the Messiah...
ReplyDeleteDo they both share the same purpose ..namely to put us in right relationship with the Creator?
If I see Y'shua as the living Torah, what conclusions can I draw?
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
How do you faithfully read "but, The man that doeth them shall live in them." in the above?
Here is mine--> Doing the law apart from faith is death. Doing the law in faith is life.
Legalistically observing torah commands is worthless if you are trying to gain justification.
Faithfully doing them, tho, is life!
Y'shua is the way, the Truth and the Life, and the Torah is Life.
This is thinking out loud.
What do you think?
Shannon: Explain what you mean about the covenants are given to Israelites, not Jews. Most folks think they are the same thing.
ReplyDeleteDid YHWH ever make a cov with Jews only? Davidic, maybe because he was a jew.
For all you guys ... how many covenants are there? Is it always stated "YHWH says I will make my cov with "----". Is it always a new temporary covenant or same just renewed each time? Adam, Noah ( Gen 6:18), Abraham(Gen 17:2),Isaac(17;21), isrealites(Ex 6:4) David, Messiah...
"my covenant" What is that?
I searched e-sword and got 72 verses. I can't list them all but I ask you to look for them.
Orrin, did any one say what it means to be a Jew?
That means you are from one of the 12 tribes of israel...the tribe of Judah. But Paul says in Rom 2:28 " For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly;..." It is a matter of the spirit or the heart. That does not mean people have to become jews but both jew and gentile have the matter of the heart that I think Mr. Bo speaks so Eloquently about.
Jordan,
ReplyDeleteIf you want to converse by email, please post yours so that I can contact you.
Shalom
My email is
ReplyDeletesendjomail@gmail.com
Jordan
If we return to YHWH with our whole heart and soul in keeping His commandments, He will circumcise our hearts and the hearts of our children.
ReplyDeleteDeuteronomy 30
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Please note that the outcome of having a new heart and new spirit is us keeping His Torah.
Ezekiel 11
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 36
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
To be continued.
Continued from above.
ReplyDeleteThe promise of us being YHWH's children and He being our Elohim and Father is conditional. We must apply ourselves to holiness and obedience.
2 Corinthians 6
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
We may not continue to walk in our detestable ways and continue to participate in uncleanness. If our heart is soft instead of stony, we love YHWH's law and put into practice in our lives. If our heart is circumcised we will keep His commandments. Our uncircumcision does not count as circumcision if we do not keep the law.
Romans 2
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
The great advantage of the physical Jew is that He has the Torah to instruct Him in righteousness. If we have the scripture and have love toward YHWH, we have the greatest advantage...we want to do what He instructs and we can find out what He instructs.
If we love Him we keep His commandments.
Shalom
If we love and know His commandments and do not keep them, we have been tricked/deceived.
ReplyDelete1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
We can even deceive ourselves by not putting YHWH's perfect law into practice.
James 1
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Or we can take Paul's advice to Timothy and read the older scriptures and put them into practice for instruction in righteousness and performing the good works that were before ordained that we should walk in them, because we have been grafted into Israel and are no longer gentiles.
2 Timothy 3
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Ephesians 2
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Shalom
The beginning of the last post should say, "If we love YHWH and know His commandments and do not keep them, we have been tricked/deceived.
ReplyDeleteMIke,
ReplyDeleteI believe when Yahweh established his covenants with people in the wilderness that came from egypt, they were a people called Israel. The Jews were primarily from the tribe of Judah. So that is only one part of Israel. The question is also, were does that put us as gentiles grafted in to this Israel.
If you want a part of these covenants you have to find were you fit in, right. Well I believe in Genesis 48:19 when Jacob blesses Ephraim and makes him a promise to him that his seed shall become a multitude of nations. (fullness of gentiles) That's us. So when speaking about Jews, I would rather people call them Israelites and then we can come to see the full picture of why messiah Yahshua came for the lost sheep of Israel. Matt 15:24
Now what I would like to say is, "If my people which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; the will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will hear their land." 2 chronicles 7:14
What is our wicked ways, the only thing it could be is our sins against his word. (commands, precepts ordinances) Seek Yahweh and know his ways, not the church's or some pastor that has been to seminary.
Blessings, shannon
Exodus 31:13
ReplyDeleteSpeak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am yahweh that doth sanctify you.
Shabbat Shalom!
Ezekiel 20:12
ReplyDeleteMoreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am Yahweh that sanctify them.
Orrin I remembered that you wanted 2 verses quoted.
:)
Shabbat Shalom everybody!
ReplyDeleteHebrews 7:18,19
ReplyDeleteFor on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness; for the Law made nothing perfect, and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
Galatians 3:2,3
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Galatians 4:9-11
But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be know by God, how is it that you turn back to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
II Corinthians 3:9-11
For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
James 1:25
But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the one of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.
I Timothy 1:8,9
But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners....
Jeff, I do see two covenants, but I think your understanding is that in some way the law was a burden to bear and that Christ fulfilled it so that we no longer have to "bear" it. You are right that "by the works of the law shall no flesh be saved," but salvation through faith as a result of God's grace is the entry level into the covenant. If we stop there, at the best we would be stunted and at the worst we will turn again to our sinful nature.
ReplyDeleteIn Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23 Jesus gives the parable of the sower.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
There were four different soil types the seed was sown in. Three seeds took root. Only one produced fruit. I think that if we think that we can have salvation without growing and maturing through following God's law we may very well find ourselves in one of the other two scenarios where the seed dies out for one reason or another.
What a sad thing to hear, "Depart from me ye workers of lawlessness, I never knew you."
I think that fruit equals works as ugly as that sounds. The chief purpose of man is to love God and to glorify him forever, not to live only for ourselves.
Sid
T. Family,
ReplyDeleteI would like to ask what you are trying to say with those verses you posted,
what I'm understanding (please tell me if I'm wrong) is that you are use the words of Paul (a man)
to go against the words of YHWH (God of the universe)
if you are responding to Tyler, he was just giving some encouraging words to those of us entering into YHWH's Shabbat,
Thank you, Tyler, for those verses
Shabbat Shalom
Gideon,
ReplyDeleteNo, I was not responding to what he had just said. There has been much that has been shared so far on an issue that covers a wealth of biblical material. I have been praying about how and when I might enter the discussion. I just decided to share some verses from Paul and James that deal with the issue of the Law. My comment just happened to fall after what Tyler said. While the Lord has much to teach me, I felt that it might be good to have some additional perspective. My time is limited, so I am not sure how often I might be able to comment.
Your response, along with one earlier on, did raise a question.
Are you saying that the words written in the epistles of Paul and James are not equivalent with the rest of the New and Old Testaments?
I defiantly believe that Paul and James are relevant to the rest of the Scriptures,
ReplyDeleteBut, are you saying that the words of YHWH are not equivalent to the words of Paul and James?
Doesn't the word of YHWH trumps everything else?
if Pauls writings contradict
YHWHs Word, can he really be a teacher of YHWH?
I'm not at all saying that Paul and James are false teachers, only that they would never say anything to go against the word of YHWH.
I think it's important to remember that the Law came from YHWH, not Moses, and YHWH would not send His son to the world to do away with His own Laws,
would He?
Hey, I had a typo up there, I meant to say DEFINITELY, not defiantly, that really came out wrong,
ReplyDeletesorry about that.
Well since we are at 119 comments, it reminded of 2 things. Psalms 119 and 119 Ministries. A great website that tests a lot of things in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteI would like to quote the first verse and the last verse of Psalms 119
Psalms 119:1
Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of Yahweh.
Psalms 119:176
I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek they servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
Its amazing how much David talks about the Torah through the Psalms.
Gideon,
ReplyDeleteYou used the word “relevant” and not equivalent. Am I wrong in understanding that you are saying that parts of our Old and New Testaments are the word of God(YHWH) and others are not? I would like to answer your last question after we come to an understanding on this issue if that is ok? I believe that all of our Old and New Testament in their original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek, are the very word of God(YHWH).
What does the Bible call the very Word of God? 2 Tim 3:15-17 is what Paul says. i believe what the New testament says but it has to be subject to the Scriptures.
ReplyDeleteWhere does New Testament get that ranking. I believe the Law and the Prophets and the writings are what the Apostles would call the Scriptures. The express Word of God? Can you give proof texts? How do you come to that conclusion?
Giz will answer later. He is on the phone now. these are my own questions.
Shabbat Shalom Brothers!
ReplyDeleteThis morning I have been reading through all the comments posted since I last was on. I have been blessed by so much that has been posted here (I know it's purpose is for the brotherhood, hope you dont mind a sister without a husband reading through and being encouraged by the men in her life). Praying for you all, that you will sharpen and encourage one another in Truth.
I noticed Bo commenting earlier about the inconsideration of deleted posts, which I have done and want to clarify that I never removed them because I replied to quickly and needed to take back my words, the few times I deleted comments were because I type too quickly and when I reread the posts I noticed grammical errors, so I deleted and reposted with the corrections.
I just wanted to let you brothers know that your words and the scriptures you are posting have encouraged me this morning.
Blessing to you all,
Andrea
Sid and Jeff, Can I jump in with a thought? Could the word "New" in New Covenant be "renewed" instead of brand new? Then there would be only one covenant and it is renewed. Would you look into the meaning of the word "new" with me/ I will do the same.
ReplyDeleteMatt 26:28, Jer 31:31, Heb 8:8,13; Heb 12:24
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
ReplyDeleteSid/Jeff: Here is my first finding: The word "established" is better translated "made law" or maybe "this covenant has been given as Torah" as is printed in the Complete Jewish New Testament.
The highest honor is that of Torah and Hebrews says the New Testament is equal to the Torah.
"New" seems to mean the same kind of new as the New Moon:"Refreshed"
But Maybe there is evidence for me to get convinced that the New Testament is equal to the Old Testament.
You are challenging me to look into this.
MinnesotaMike/Gideon,
ReplyDeleteHere are some verses and some other considerations. Kind of long, but if you have time please take a look at it.
II Peter 3:15,16
and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him wrote to you, as also in all his letters speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
I believe there is significance in Peter including the phrase: "as they do also the rest of the Scriptures". By using the word "rest"(loipas) it seems clear that he is placing Paul's words on the same level as other Scripture, the Old Testament.
Galatians 1:11,12
For I would have know brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it , but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
In the previous verses Paul has just called out the Galatians for entertaining a false gospel. He makes clear in verses 11,12 that the gospel he preaches is from God. Paul spends the rest of Galatians correcting this false gospel. Surely Paul believes that his further explanation of this gospel and its implications are from Christ also.
Ephesians 1:2-10
if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. And by referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; in order that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
Colossians 1:24-27
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body ,which is the church, in filling up that which is lacking in Christ's afflictions. Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations; but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
It seems very clear from these passages that Paul believed that he had received clear revelation from God and was giving further truth from God that had not been revealed before. Notice that in Colossians 1:25 that the words "preaching of" are not in the
Greek. It says: "that I might fully carry out the word of God".
John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 16:13-15
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.
Continued on next post.
Jesus shared much with His disciples, truth that was not revealed in the Old Testament. He makes it very clear that His disciples/apostles would be the bearers of this truth. He promises them that the Spirit will reveal it to them and bring to remembrance what He had taught. We see this truth in the New Testament, the word of God ministered through His Spirit.
ReplyDeleteIf Paul thought that his words were revelation from Christ, but they really were not, what does that make Paul? and Peter?
Some other considerations.
If we are to accept the words of Christ, we must accept the Gospel accounts as the word of God. If we do not, how do we know what truly are the words of Christ? If these are the words of men and not necessarily the word of God, how can we truly use them to confirm the Old Testament? What then can we use to confirm the Old Testament? The words there were written down by men just like the words of the gospel accounts. Do you understand what I am getting at?
I believe whole heartedly that the Old and New Testaments are the word of God. II Peter 1:20,21
The word of God(YHWH) through Moses(OT), the word of God through Matthew(Gospels), and the word of God through Peter(Epistles), are all equally the word of God(YHWH).
If we do not accept the New Testament as the word of God, then it becomes similar to commentaries by other Godly men. We can pick and choose what we agree with or what we feel fits in with the OT.
It seems clear that almost all the followers of Christ over history have accepted the authority of the Old and New testaments as the word of God.
I know this is very long but I hope it can give some understanding.
T. Family, I believe that Paul is indeed speaking scripture, but I in no way feel that he could write anything which if properly understood would in some way supercede what YHWH said in the Old Testament.
ReplyDeleteWhat we have effectively done through time, and false teaching and the traditions of men is to set the Old Testament against the New Testament as "old" meaning "outdated" and "new" meaning "revised or better" as if GOd forgot some things up front and improved it to make it easier for us to be saved.
In fact the term Torah does not mean "law" but "teaching and instruction." God gave it to us as a gift and living in it produces abundant life.
Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
We have taught the negative connotation of this verse. That he must "shoulder the entire law" instead of the positive meaning that living by God's instruction produce a life of abundance.
Blessings and curses resulted from the law. Not because God was there to slap our hands if we did not follow his instruction, but the following of it just produced a good life in the flesh.
If we think of the law as onerous and grace as if it lifts an elephant off of us it would make me want to get out from under the law also. But let me digress for a minute. Is brushing your teeth an onerous task. Just stop doing it. Does blessing or cursing flow from brushing your teeth. God gave us his Torah for our benefit, not for his grading scale.
Then we teach that "grace" is easy because all we have to do is accept what Christ did on calvary and we are in. That is the entry point. Paul said in 1 Cor. "No other foundation can any man lay than that which is laid, Jesus Christ" but he also indicates that we "build" on that foundation. When a baby is born he lives on his mothers milk and is a living soul. If he never progressed beyond that point would he grow to adulthood? We must grow and produce fruit. Matt 3:10b "every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire."
I would commend to you that there are two part of salvation that produces eternal life. 1 Peter 2:2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation.
Remember the parable of the sower. Four seeds planted, three took root but only one bore fruit. (produced eternal life)
Several places in the new testament speak to these two aspects. I'll list a couple here.
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God Torah produced) and our Saviour Jesus Christ Salvation by faith):
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God,(Torah) and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (salvation by faith)
I believe that living life my way and free from "Gods law" will only produce death but living for God using His instruction will spring up into everlasting life. The christian life is a life of growth or of sliding back. There is no such thing as status quo.
Sid
Added to the previous.
ReplyDeleteI am not talking about salvation by works in any way. But if we are solely concerned about being liberated from the law so that we can do whatever we want with no twinges of conscience we will at some point move far enough away of our own accord that we will miss the mark.
Sid
Sid,
ReplyDeleteI shared my post because it seemed Gideon and Mike were indicating that they did not believe Paul's words were scripture as the Old Testament.
I wanted to make sure that there was a common foundation before there was further discussion on other areas.
Would you say that most of those among you who are understanding that the Law is to be followed today would uphold the New Testament as the word of God?
Mark
I uphold the New Testament as the word of YHWH. Most believers that I know consider Paul and the other NT writers to have been inspired.
ReplyDeleteShalom
TFamily,
ReplyDeleteDo you agree that Matthew is inspired and that Messiah said exactly what He meant?
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Paul seems to agree since he didn't stop keeping the law and taught for us to be followers of him. So if we follow Paul and Y'shua, we will also keep the law. By so doing we will be great in the kingdom if we teach other to keep the law also. Here is what Paul says about the law being voided:
“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Rom. 3:31)
Shalom
Bo,
ReplyDeleteYes, as I stated in an earlier post, I do believe that Matthew is inspired. What Christ says is truth from God, since He is very God. My interpretation would probably be different than yours. Determining the meaning of "fulfill" is key.
My time is limited. I will try to share more when I can. Hopefully, there can be some profitable discussion.
Mark
Mark of TFamily,
ReplyDeleteHere is the verse to which you refer:
Matthew 5
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
If you will note, whatever fulfill means to you or me... "ALL" is not fulfilled from the law and the prophets and heaven and earth have not passed. There are many things left to fulfill. Just read Revelation or any of the prophets. There are even things that were prophesied in the Law that have not come to pass yet. Oh, and heaven and earth have not passed away yet too. So neither of the two conditions have been met for even the smallest pen stroke of the law to pass from it.
Shalom
Mark of TFamily,
ReplyDeleteYou quoted this verse earlier:
"I Timothy 1:8,9
But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners...."
I think that Paul told Timothy how to use the law lawfully...let's look:
2 Timothy 3
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The scripture that Timothy knew from his youth was the Law and the Prophets. Paul instructs Timothy to use the Law to obtain correct doctrine, to gain instruction in righteousness (living correctly), and to know everything he needed to know about good works (throughly furnished unto all good works). So Paul's definition of how to use the law lawfully is to use it as instructions on how to live life and what to practice. Pretty clear, don't you think?
Shalom
Mark of TFamily,
ReplyDeleteI must add...
You quoted: "...that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners...."
John is used by YHWH to explain Paul on this one. Who is the righteous person? Who is the one that sins? Who is the lawless? Who is the sinner?
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[The sinner is the one that transgresses the law.]
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[The righteous person is the one that does righteousness. The context shows us that the person that continues to transgress the law is the unrighteousness person and the one who keeps the law is the one that does righteousness.]
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Letting scripture interpret scripture, we come to realize that the deceived person is the one that thinks that he is righteous though he does not do righteousness. He is the one that does not think that he needs the law. But the very fact that he is transgressing it makes him a sinner and possibly rebellious...and we know that the rebellious and sinners need the law to instruct them. We use the law lawfully when we look into it like a mirror and adjust our actions to match what it says we should do. If we look into YHWH's perfect law and think that we do not need to adjust to match what it says, we deceive ourselves.
James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
What is the perfect law?
Psalm 19
7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
What reward could there be for keeping YHWH's law?
Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
1 John 3
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Sounds like great reward to me!
Shalom
Bo:
ReplyDeleteYes, it is great reward.
Even though there is a standard to live by. I still don't trust in my own self to "KnowItAll". When I think I am doing all things well, I fall.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
When I look into the perfect Law, the Law of Liberty, I have to pray for the leading of the Spirit to show me faults that I do not see on my own.
Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
Psa 139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
Then He leads me in the way everlasting, back to the right path.
What is the New Covenant or New Testament? No difference to me in the two phrases.
ReplyDeleteDoes that title denote a collection of writings by eyewitnesses and companions of our wonderful Savior,
or,
Is the New Covenant the act Y'shua performed at His execution.
For that matter, what is the Old Covenant. Have these been defined before in this blog?
We use these titles for the parts of the Bible, but they both have another meaning. With use they become common terms.
Short and sweet: I would say the Old is at Mt Sinai and the New is at Mt Calvary.
I believe Hebrews 8:6b is saying what happened at Calvary is made Torah. The word for established could literally mean "made law". it goes on to say that the torah will be written on hearts of Israel and Judah.
Minnesota Mike: You ask good questions. I think I will be talking past many here if we don't work from the same definitions and presuppositions. Sid is a good Bible man, but does not represent or understand my presuppositions in this blog.
ReplyDelete1. When I say two covenants, I do not mean Old and New Testaments. I mean the One way Covenant started in Genesis 3:15 as soon as sin came in. It is given specifically to Abram in Gen 12:1-3 in the starting of the nation, Israel. YHWH ratified it in Gen 15. It shows up all over the OT, including Jer 31.
It is important because it is the basis for our salvation in Christ. The Blessings of this covenant ARE Jesus Christ. Always were the Messiah and still are. This is all over the book of Romans and Galatians.
2. The other covenant is the two-way covenant the God gave to and through Moses. This was how the Israelites were supposed to live out their lives. They failed miserably time and time again and were constantly judged. Moses asked God to REMEMBER. God withheld judgement in remembering what? His one way covenant, which I call the Abrahamic covenant. This is the same today. We are saved because of God's one way Covenant from the same Abraham. It was born as a baby named Jesus Christ, grew as man, like us, but lived every jot and tittle of the law, UNLIKE US, and died and rose again for us.
3. The purpose of the law. I define the law as ANYTHING YHWH commands us to do or not to do. This includes ALL 66 books of God's Word.
It's role is to prepare us for Christ. To show us where we fall short. To expose our sin. Then, we can receive Christ. We can receive forgiveness and grace. Then, and only then, can we have any hope of following God's Torah Law. Without His grace, we have no hope. It is mere filthy rags. Only what Christ does in me counts for anything. I am a sinner. He is everything. He is my hope. I have no hope for salvation in following the law, I only have hope in Christ, that He followed the law for me.
jeffh
Minnesota Mike:
ReplyDeleteYou asked, "Sid and Jeff, Can I jump in with a thought? Could the word "New" in New Covenant be "renewed" instead of brand new?"
Answer: Yes.
jeffh
There are just too many passages which refer to something beyond salvation. When Paul says in 1 Cor. 3:10-11 that Jesus Christ is the foundation he also says to take heed how you build on that foundation. "Build" is an action word indicating "work." Faith without works is dead.
ReplyDeleteJeff would hold to the teachings of men in his understanding that Jer 31 is talking of the Abrahamic covenant. But that was the understanding which was needed to make their theology work. And furthermore we need to understand that Paul was given the responsibility by God to change whatever he felt was needed to make the gospel more palatable.
God's word is inerrant. If it is in disagreement with itself we are not understanding it properly.
When the writers of the new testament reference the law, or commandments, etc. the recipients of those teachings would have only had one resource to go to to see what was being referred to, the Old Testament. Any other understanding is denying the reality of the time. God gave us His instructions, the Torah, and it was perfect. In the New Testament it is referred to as "the perfect law of liberty." Because of our wicked hearts we choose to view God's law in a somewhat negative light.
One more time I would like to receive a response from someone who feels that the law does not apply as it was written in the old testament. Which of God's laws or instructions would you choose to do away with if you could?
TFamily - on the term fulfilled:
OT: Animal sacrifices for sin.
NT: Jesus Christ, the perfect lamb sacrificed for the sins of the world once and for all time. (That portion of the law; Fulfilled)
OT: Priestly ceremonial law requirements.
NT: The veil of the temple was rent in two and we have access unto Jesus Christ who is now our high priest. (That portoin of the law; Fulfilled)
These fullfillments are clearly understood and clearly explained in the New Testament. As such a majority of the law was indeed fulfilled. But the part that remained did not and will not change regardless of our theology. It seems that the word "fulfilled" has become a catch all to explain anything we do not understand or choose not to obey. In Matt 5:48says "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Was this just another command to frustrate us or did he want us to truly embrace his teaching and instruction? In fact all of God's "instructions" were given for benefit. And in our "running that we may obtain" (1Cor 9:24) his grace is sufficient in our shortcomings.
Sid
To all,
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to share my heart to make things clear. My desire to share here is not to try and move it away from an edifying effort among you folks. I came on here because it was shared with me by some concerned ones that I know. My desire is to seek the truth and honor and exalt our wonderful Savior. If anyone feels that I am not demonstrating that, I can withdraw. But if you feel the dialogue can have profit on this particular blog, I will continue to share. I am trying to deal with each issue and question that is raised, and I may be a little slow in responding.
Mark True
I think that this discussion is profitable. I would like to introduce a question? We are talking about being grafted in. In Jesus discourse in John 15:5-6, 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
ReplyDelete6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
After salvation what is indicated by "abide." Is that an active verb, or because of what Jesus did can it be passive on our part?
Sid
Jeff, do I have this strait?
ReplyDeleteIn that two-way cov, if one does all that is written he is innocent if he he fails to do all that is written he is guilty. Y'shua(Jesus) was innocent so he did it all perfectly.
Is it your thinking that we are held responsible for doing it, too, but that Y'shua did it FOR US?
So we don't have to?
I don't know if there is a passage that backs up the idea that I described above. He did it all for me, so I don't have to.
From Eph 2 but know I am calling attention to the whole chapter for context.
ReplyDeleteEph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Covenants, plural, but not my point. of promise.
We used to be gentiles, used to walk according to this world, used to be disobedient. Used to be strangers and foreigners but now we are not.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
We must be obedient->To the whole Bible(ot,nt), Accept Messiah and rules to live by. This should not be huge discussion. It always is, tho. There is some underlying "fear" that we "law abiders" are doing our "law abiding" for "salvation" instead of abiding in Christ. We are not. We accept the sacrifice of the savior as the payment for our sin and the sin of the entire cosmos, for all people past, present and future. But sin is described in the law and now we seek to be holy even as Y'shua was Holy...And we are still abiding in Him and bearing fruit.
Nothing we do or can do is about getting salvation. It is all because now we are saved, we want to live right.righteous. we want to be great in the kingdomn ot just slide in.
I still say no new religion is born out of the New Testament. It should be Israel that accepted and Israel that did not accept Messiah. Still Israel. We are grafted into Israel.
Don't be afraid to observe the Sabbath day this week. You have three more days to decide. tick tick tick. :)#
T. Family
ReplyDeleteto answer your question from the 7th,
here's the bottom line, Paul will not say anything that will contradict anything YHWH says.
if someone is reading it that way, you're misinterpreting,
that's my opinion.
I think if Paul was here right now, and saw the way his writings are being used to tear down the Law, he would be appalled.
Bo/Sid,
ReplyDeleteIn regard to Matthew 5:17-19, yes, there are still prophecies of the Prophets yet to be fulfilled in regard to Christ. Yet many have been fulfilled and the prophecy no longer exists because it has been accomplished. The prophecy is not abolished but fulfilled.
From what Sid said, I'm assuming that you don't keep the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the law, because they have been fulfilled. So, in essence, fulfillment results in cessation of application.
I believe we must view the Law as a unit. It was naturally separated into its categories when it was given to express it logically, but Scripture does not separate it like we do today. Jesus and the writers of the New Testament refer to the Law as a single entity. When they speak of the law there is nothing to indicate it is not the whole Law. When David referred to the Law it seems it was the Law as a whole.
Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, not just part of it. In His life, death, and resurrection He did fulfill all of it.
In Christ, the Law has been satisfied in all its aspects, ceremonial, sacrificial, and moral/civil. For those who are in Christ, it would make no further demands. This is what is indicated in Romans 10:4-8. Christ is the “end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes”. In verses 5,6 Paul contrasts the righteousness based on the law with the righteousness based on faith. The word for “end”(telos) means termination point, the limit at which a thing ceases to be. It is used numerous times in the New Testament in this way. The Law asked from man obedience. Only in Christ was the perfect conformity accomplished. This is confirmed clearly in Romans 8:1-4. Verses 3,4: “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did; sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”.
This lines up together with the Abrahamic covenant related to faith. Look at Galatians 3. The promise was before the Law. The Law came in beside and served a special purpose until Christ came. The Law was good in accomplishing its purpose but it was not of faith. Once the object of faith came, Christ, we are no longer under the tutor, the Law.
The whole law is fulfilled and not abolished. Its requirement is accomplished in the believer through Christ. Just as we are not obligated to the sacrificial and other aspects, we are not obligated to the moral aspects. This is because we now have life; “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death”.(Romans 8:2). The Law could never impart life, not eternal life nor the life that lives through us daily in Christ Jesus(Galatians 3:21). Galatians 5:22,23 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law”.
ReplyDeleteAs we look at all of this I think it is important to take a look at how we interpret Scripture. God has not revealed His plan all at once but progressively over time. The OT writers anticipated a Messiah and a kingdom; however they did not have understanding of the church and the mystery that Paul shares. We must be careful not to restrict the NT writers with the OT. They expand on the OT and share additional truth not known before. There is new truth that clarifies the developing plan of God. If the Law has been fulfilled and is set aside in its application, this does not mean we are abolishing it or seeking to annul its authority in the developing plan of God. Jesus told the disciples when they first were sent out to take nothing with them (Luke9) but when he talked to them later (Luke 22) he told them to take money, bag, etc. with them. Both are commands of Christ. Two conflicting commands. But in the developing plan of God they both have their appointed purpose. This is an example of this principle.
There are so many aspects of this area of discussion. It can go on for very long.
Bo said: “John is used by YHWH to explain Paul on this one. Who is the righteous person? Who is the one that sins? Who is the lawless? Who is the sinner?”
I will try and make some comments on this later.
MinnesotaMike:
ReplyDeleteTo answer your question briefly on the two covenants. Regardless of what you call them - one is one way and the other is two way (Moses). In Jer 31 you will notice that the Israelites did NOT keep the commands handed down from Moses (two way). But God says He will renew the ONE WAY covenant (He says I WILL forgive and remember their sins no more). Notice He is the subject and He does the action alone (without us).
I am not saying I know it all, and apologize if I come across as not need to learn more. This is simply my understanding of the two covenants.
NOTICE for example in Ex 35 when they sinned by making a golden calf. What does Moses say to God after God wants to burn them up? Moses says, "remember" your covenant that you made with Abram, Isaac and Jacob. God renews the covenant and they are forgiven.
ALSO NOTICE: when Jesus celebrates the passover, He says, "remember me". Again, He points to the renewed covenant in His blood.
This is because Jesus blood is the fulfillment of the one way covenant.
Just as the Israelites needed God to act on their behalf to forgive them for their failure to keep the law or torah, so we need God to forgive us in Christ when we fail. This is GRACE.
For the Israelites they remembered how God delivered them from slavery in Egypt, which foreshadowed Christ. We remember how Christ delivered us from slavery to sin.
There is your fulfillment in Christ. There is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ. We still fail. We can try as hard as we might and our efforts will still fall short. Our efforts are still filthy rags to God. ONLY the efforts of Christ count. God credits righteousness to us BECAUSE OF CHRIST, not us. With Abraham it was the same. It says in Gen 15:6 that Abram was credited righteousness due to his believing, not because of his ability to follow the torah.
I believe this is basic. Without this understanding we will never understanding the role of God's delightful law in our lives. I love His law, but without His one way covenant in Christ the law would only condemn me. I thank Him everyday for living the law for me and dying my death for me and rising again for me. Thank you, Lord for these wonderful truth seekers on this page. Forgive me for not always being a good example of a seeker of your truth. Thank you most of all for Jesus Christ and His grace.
jeffh
Okay Jeff, Now what?
ReplyDeleteSo you and I both accept what happened on Calvary for the payment of the penalty of sin. what our Savior did we could not and do not have to do. Now how will we live? Doing righteousness or not worrying about it? Well, of course, we will want to do what is righteous. So we look into that perfect law and see what to do, how to decide.
We won't eat the flesh of a swine because that is condemned in Scripture. We will rest on the sabbath(7th day) because that is instructed in the Torah.
Rememberance of a covenant or as oft as you do this remember me... did not change specific instructions that are for our good and we can have an abundantly full life by them.
I have said before, we don't do what we do for salvation. Rather, because we are saved we live the way the Bible teaches. You are right, this is basic and foundational.
Shalom,Michael
I am responding to what I read from Tfamily above. Jeff talks about two covenants, Tfamily talks about a fulfilled law.
ReplyDeleteY'shua talks about heaven and earth passing away before anything falls away from the law.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
If I was not influenced by some presupposition (theology), and just read that for the first time, I would go looking for what the "law and the prophets" meant. Then I think I would seek to do my best to observe all things that are commanded and I would see Y'shua(Jesus) as the one in charge of it all.
Deut 4:26, 30:19,28
Why does He mention heaven and earth passing away at all? I think this verse in Deu 30:19 is what it is about "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"
a couple of verses earlier Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Love YHWH, walk in his ways, keep his commandments..blessings shall follow. Then heaven and earth are called to witness. Until the witness dies the provisions stand in the agreement(covenant) whether it be one-way or two-way.
It takes two witnesses.
Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Boom! Law can't be done until the two witnesses are gone: heaven and earth pass away It is in the New Testament, Y'shua says it.
Paul does talk about the law in parts, not only as a whole. Don't tell me you think YHWH gave us "bondage" just to show us we are failures. He loves us and gave us instructions on a beautiful way to live for long life and prosperity and health and faithful relationships.
Not only that but you don't seem to see that some of the stuff that is called law is not even in the Torah. It is extra added by pharisees. For example, Mark 7 washing hands..please read it but I will copy only this Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Jews call that type of tradition "law", too. I would not attempt to site many verses on blog but Paul must be seen in truth to not lump every thing in the Torah in one pot and flush it all.
Tell me, guys, what is in the Torah you do not want to do? Except for the Ceremony and the Ritual. Do yo know what is there. For instance Levitucus 19:3,9,13,29 are those gone away or do they still sound pretty good?
Mr. T. Did you you really mean to say we have no obligation to the moral law of scripture. Do you really live with no obligation to the scripture at all??? Come now, I could never offend anyone then, no matter what I did.
Let's keep going. We are getting somewhere.
Shalom, Michael
Sorry, I forgot to smile again. I really do hope to sound off in Love. It really cheers me to have you guys as new friends from around the country. We are not as far apart as you might think.
ReplyDeleteKeep smiling! :)#
Shalom! Michael
Don't be afraid to observe the Sabbath day this week. You have TWO more days to decide. tick tick. :)#
ReplyDeleteMMike:
ReplyDeleteWe may not be too far off from each other. You brought up Sabbath. Here we might see a bit of difference (which is fine, I don't diparage worship on Saturday). I happen to believe that Jesus raised the standard and turned it inward (He is the Lord of the Sabbath).
So, I worship Jesus, who IS my Sabbath Rest every day, not just one day.
That, to me, IS following the command from God, "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy"
See the difference?
So, I believe I am worshipping on Saturday and Sunday. He is my REST eternally, not just one day. Psalm 95:1 / Hebrews/ Matt 11:28, etc.
jeffh
Jeffh,
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that YHWH tell us to rest and make sure that everyone in our care rests on the seventh day of the week. Even our animals are to get the day off. Also there is to be a holy convocation on the 7th day of the week. All of scripture tells us to worship YHWH with all that we are all the time. The Sabbath is not about worship...except it proves whether or not we will worship YHWH by keeping His commandments or not.
Will we accept His request or do things our own way? We will say that we are worshiping and obeying while heaven and earth witness against us. Oh, we are worshiping. But maybe not what we think that we are worshiping.
Matthew 15
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
John 4
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 17
17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Spirit and truth...please. Not just spirit. "Thy word is truth" is referencing YHWH's Torah. Will we be sanctified to YHWH or to our great ideas and systems? How do we know if our heart is close to YHWH instead of far from Him?
To be continued.
Continued from above.
ReplyDelete1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Deuteronomy 30
10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
It is not too hard for us, if we have it in our hearts. If we love Him, we love His word. If we love His word, we do it. We always end up doing what is in our hearts. The most important things get done. Keeping YHWH's commandments is our proof that we love Him the most.
We are not save by keeping His commandments. We are saved by faith in His atoning blood. We work out our salvation by keeping His commandments. We show our love by keeping them. We live righteous and holy lives by keeping them. What does it mean when we do not want to keep them? What does it mean if we do not even try to keep them?
We must endure until the end to be saved.
Matthew 24
12 Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be delivered.
Revelation 14
12 Here is endurance of the saints: here are those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.’
So law breaking shows that our love is cold. That we are not enduring. Continuing to keep YHWH's commandments along with faith in Y'shua is enduring till the end.
Shalom
Sorry for all the typos and bad punctuation above.
ReplyDelete:)}>
Bo, I appreciate what you are saying and I admire your heart to seek truth. amen.
ReplyDeleteI can basically agree with everything you just wrote. We may simply have a differing concept of what YHWH was ultimately commanding us through the Torah. I think it was the Jews for Jesus site (?) that I read that warned us not stop with the torah alone, but to finish the whole story (context) with Jesus words and actions, our Messiah. The Gospels.
Yes, resting is important, both literally and spiritually. Yshua did not come to earth, ultimately, to have us rest once a week, it was to seek and to save the lost. By the way, I do rest on a literal seventh day, and I also avoid pork for health reasons. We circumcise our boys for health and personal reasons. God's laws are good for us. I delight in them. But, if I think that I am more righteous (to justify myself) because I do those things, then as it says clearly in Galatians 5:2, Christ is of no value and I am falling from grace. God forbid that we would ever run to the torah instead of the cross, every day. The Torah wonderfully points us to the cross, not the other way around. I say that with lots of respect for your approach.
brother in Christ,
jeffh
Y'all must think I am full of hooey.
ReplyDeleteDon't be afraid to obey the Torah for real reasons, not health reasons. It won't hurt and you won't lose your salvation.
You, too, can be called great in the Kingdom.
Don't let flesh and blood reveal this to you, but the Spirit of the Living God.
It is not a matter of the cross point us to the Torah. Now that we are saved,redeemed,translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light... I still think most people who just read the Bible with out theologians telling them what to believe, would not work on Saturdays and would not eat pork. They would do things this way because the Bible says so.
MinnesotaMike:
ReplyDeleteI don't think you are full of hooey. ha good one.
Depends on what they read. If they read Romans 14, Gal. 5, Col 2, Acts 15, Hebrews, Jer 31, etc. I don't think they would.
Besides, scriptures tells us, through the Bereans and through the example of Paul and the apostles, so lean on our more, studied and mature rabbis and brothers in Christ to help us interpret.
Left to our own, our evil nature would lead us astray.
Romans 1-3
jeffh
Do you believe a new convert to Christianity should be baptized/immersed?
DeleteMMike: Yes. I assume you would to, correct? Or did I miss something?
ReplyDeleteCurious why you ask.
jeffh
Did you guys ever wonder what a blog would look like if the Apostles lived in the 21st century. Can you imagine James, Paul and John going at it? Do you think that what they wrote to each other would be scripture? There is definitely something lacking in getting to the bottom line on this type of dialogue.
ReplyDeletePaul: "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
James: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."
Paul: "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
James: "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."
John: "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."
Paul: "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."
Peter: "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Paul: "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."
Peter: "our beloved brother Paul"
John: "We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God."
John: "he that knoweth God heareth us"
James: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Paul: "Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
John: "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."
Shalom
Bo,
ReplyDeleteIn response to your comments on I Timothy 1:8,9; I John 3, etc.
First, let me clarify to all. While I believe the Law was fulfilled in Christ and no longer has the application as a required guide of conduct for the one who is in Christ, the Law is definitely useful. It reflects the righteousness of God and the sinfulness of man. There are eternal principles of God’s nature expressed in it. However, these principles existed from eternity long before the Law was given. Much of this is reiterated in the NT.
I Timothy 1:8,9 – Yes, Timothy did have the OT as a resource, but he also had the teachings of Christ and the word from Paul to clarify. II Timothy 2:2: “And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” Paul exhorted Timothy to pass on the truth that he had heard from Paul. Just as Paul said in Galatians 3 that the Law was added because of transgressions, he shares with Timothy that it can lead to salvation through faith in Christ(by showing the righteousness of God and the sinfulness of man.). I believe it is clear how the NT writers expand on and clarify the OT as God continues to reveal His developing plan.
In regard to the righteous vs. the unrighteous. I think it is clear here in I Timothy as in I John 3 and Romans 8, that they are describing two categories of people: those who know God and fruit is evident and those who do not know God because there is no fruit. A believer is righteous in two ways: he has been declared righteous judicially by God because of the death of Christ(II Corinthians 5:21) and he walks in righteousness(not perfection) as a characteristic of life because of the life of Christ working in him(Galatians 2:20). Therefore, the law is not applied to the believer because he is righteous but to the unbeliever because it will point out his sinfulness and condemn him.
Let’s look carefully and I John 3:4. It literally reads: “everyone doing sin also is doing lawlessness(anomia), and sin is lawlessness”. The words “doing sin” refer to the idea of practicing sin, not just one sin. The Greek does not say “sin is transgression of the law”. The idea is that the one who has a lifestyle of sin lives as if there is no constraint on him. This idea is expressed in Romans 1,2. The word for “law”(nomos) is not used anywhere in I John. Verse nine uses the same phrase “doing sin”. The true believer is characterized by righteousness although he still sins(I John 2:1) I think we should also see that sin is broader than just breaking the law. There are internal type sins referred to in the NT that are not addressed by the law.
I believe James was talking of a more complete law, the law of Christ (I Corinthians 9:21; Galatians 6:2). It is called the law of liberty or freedom (same word used in Galatians 5:13). Acts 13:38,39 says: “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses”. The law of Moses does not bring freedom.
Our blessing does not come through keeping the law or obedience to other commandments. Ephesians 1:3 says “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ,”. Israel sought obedience to the law to be blessed. We are in Christ and His righteousness is accounted to us. In Him we have all resources. He is our blessing. We don’t live looking for blessing. We live from blessing.
Mark
When we operate out of love for YHWH the law is not grievous. If it is a checklist that we have to check because it is contrary to our nature "the letter kills," but if we operate out of our love for YHWH "the spirit giveth life."
ReplyDeleteI believe that Paul taught new gentile (out of covenant) individuals who accepted Christ's death on their behalf differently as they had no previous knowledge. But when they begin to grow in their walk I believe that their resource to work from is God's Law, which James refers to as the perfect law of liberty. What is indicated in James 4:17 "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Where do I find out what is good.
Also I don't believe God has a developing plan if what is indicated by this is that it was not perfect from the beginning. Sin did not take God by surprise. But still he predestined man to be conformed to his image. He saw the end from the beginning and put in place a complete plan from day one until "all is fulfilled."
Sid
Mike,
ReplyDeleteI really don’t see where Paul clearly seeks to purposely segment the law to point out those differences in the law. Where Paul talks about the law in II Corinthians 3, most of Galatians, and Romans I think it is very clear that he is including the Mosaic law.
When you do not keep the sacrificial and ceremonial laws are you not violating Christ’s command in Matthew 5:17-19? Sid said that these had been fulfilled. I am assuming that you don’t keep them because they are fulfilled. Therefore, fulfillment leads to not following those aspects of the law. If Christ fulfilled all aspects of the law then the same principle would apply.
Mike, look at Paul’s prayer for believers in Ephesians 1 and 3 and Colossians 1. That is what I want fulfilled in my life. In Romans 13 and Galatians 5 it says the law is fulfilled when walking in love. In Galatians 5 just after that he describes the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit. Then he gives the fruit of the Spirit. My desire is to see this fruit, the character of Christ, manifested in my life.
Galatians 3:10-14 shows that the law has much to do with doing not trusting. I can perform the law. I cannot perform patience, gentleness, etc. As I walk in faith in Christ, the Spirit can manifest those in me. This is why he says the law is not of faith.
Mark
Mark of TFamily,
DeleteThere are many commandments that are not for you or me. The ones pertaining to women, Levites, priests, etc. There are many commandments that YHWH has made impossible for us to keep. Temple offerings, tithing, ashes of the red heifer etc. There are many that can be kept. Celebrating YHWH's holy days and Sabbath, dietary laws, not murdering, not coveting, etc. We will not be accountable for not doing those that are not for us or impossible for us. We will be responsible for teaching all of it and doing all we can.
In the millennium, the temple will be rebuilt. Offerings will be offered. There will be a place to go to celebrate the feasts that has YHWH's name there again. Even the nations will be required to keep the feasts on pains of drought and plagues. We have the opportunity to joyfully obey YHWH now and be rewarded for it. If He didn't want us to keep His commandments, He would not promise greatness in the Millennial kingdom for doing and teaching them now. (Mat. 5:19)
Shalom
One thing that is hard for me to understand. Most of you folks seem to speak out clearly and often that the law should be followed. The writers of the epistles have much opportunity to just come out and say the same: "Fellow followers of Christ. I am not trying to nullify the law, you still need to keep it." But to me they seem to point to its weakness to save and to sanctify. Hebrews 7:18,19
ReplyDeleteMark of TFamily,
Delete1st) no one says that the law saves. 2nd) I wonder what your definition of sanctify is.
How about these to answer your question above:
Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6
15 What then? shall we sin (transgress the law), because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 7
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2 Peter 2
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
James 2
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Shalom
I am really enjoying this part of the discussion. I have so much to learn. Bo, I appreciate the list of verses you gave revealing that we need to look at the WHOLE of scriptures, which I think takes time, hard work and patience.
ReplyDelete- REGARDING WHICH LAWS WE FOLLOW AND WHICH WE DON'T. This might surprise you but I think we follow ALL of them, including the sacrificial laws and ceremonial laws.
more later, gotta run a bit
jeffh
I am back.
ReplyDeleteWhy do I think we still follow ALL of them? Because we were never commanded NOT to follow God's law, only to shed the exterior expressions for something more and greater.
For example: most would say that we should not follow the sacrificial laws expressed in the Torah as the death of a lamb. Well, I understand that Jesus is our final sacrifice as Lamb of God, but we still follow the command to sacrifice don't we? Romans 12:1 - present YOUR bodies as LIVING sacrifices. Here we are also fulfillments of the law, not abolishing the law.
Every Torah law corresponds to something greater (type to antitype - see 1 Peter 3:21 KJV) Shadow to Reality. Sabbath rest to Jesus. Promised Land to Jesus and Heaven. Blessing to Christ. Pork to our uncleanness. Romans 14 and Phil 4:8. Six days of work to our works-righteousness, then Sabbath to Christ as our eternal rest. Circumcision to baptism (my personal belief Col 2). Waters of Noah's flood to waters of baptism. Passover blood of the covenant to Lord's supper blood of the covenant. On and on it goes.
Like it says in Rom 14, the Kingdom of God is NOT about eating and drinking, but about righteousness, peace and joy.
Does this ring somewhat true for you guys? I am still learning and don't have all the answers yet, but these discussions sure help.
jeffh
Jeff, I am sorry but that is conjecture.
Delete"Every Torah law corresponds to something greater "
Did you look at Lev 19 yet?
Lev 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
Holiness looks like honoring your mother and keeping His Sabbaths(feast days), not worshiping idols.
If the Savior doesn't teach this, then He must be a false prophet according to Deut 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Deu 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, **to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in**. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Also, Where does it say Y'shua is our Sabbath? or Baptism replaces circumcision?
Mark of TFamily,
ReplyDeleteYou are still not dealing with what Paul told Timothy. He said:
2 Timothy 3
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The "holy scriptures" (not just any old writings of apostles and such that may or may not become scripture as far as we are concerned) that were available at the time Timothy was a child and even when Paul penned the words quoted above, was what we call the "Old Testament." It was these that Paul said would "throughly furnish the man of Elohim unto all good works." What good works are described in the Tanakh? What is in there that you do not think are still good works? What are good works supposed to accomplish? Salvation?...NO! What did Y'shua say?
Matthew 5
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
The good works are the commandments of YHWH. They will not change until "ALL" are fulfilled. "ALL" is not fulfilled until heaven and earth pass away. We will receive our place in the kingdom according to our purposeful doing and teaching others to do YHWH's commandments. Our light that shines before men is our obedience to these commandments. These are our good works. Anything else is manmade tradition and philosophy and vain deceit. These do not glorify our Father in heaven. Obedience to His word does glorify Him.
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
ReplyDeleteIf we have lost our savor, we deserve to be trampled under the feet of men. If we obey YHWH's commandments, we will rule over men. The good works that YHWH prepared for us are spelled out in the thing that Paul called the "holy scriptures."
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
We are no longer gentiles. We have been grafted into Israel. They are supposes to be the light of the world by obedience to YHWH's commandments. They/we do not get saved by the good works, but they/we are obligated to them...since they have been bought with a very dear price. We are supposed to be built upon the foundation of the "apostles and prophets," not just the apostles. Moses was one of those prophets. He was the first to say that others would see our good works and glorify YHWH.
Deuteronomy 4
6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
We do not fulfill the righteousness of the law unless we are doing what the law calls righteous. If we love it, we will do it. If it is a bunch of obsolete rules to us, we won't do it. If we will not subject ourselves to YHWH's law, we prove that we are carnal minded and fighting against YHWH's good works that He has prepared for us to walk in so that He will be glorified.
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
ReplyDeleteTo whom we yield out members servants to obey, to him we belong. The things that we do, prove to whom we are sanctified. Holiness requires obedience.
John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Messiah set Himself apart to YHWH by obeying perfectly YHWH's word. That word was spelled out in a general sense in the Law and the Prophets. He prayed that the Father would sanctify, not only the apostles, but us that hear their word...by the very same truth...the Tanakh...just like Paul told Timothy. We are sent into the world to be a light, not of ourselves or our church, but of the Father in heaven...just like the Son was sent to be "The Light" not of Himself, but of the Father.
Shalom
Mark of TFamily,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote: "Galatians 3:10-14 shows that the law has much to do with doing not trusting. I can perform the law. I cannot perform patience, gentleness, etc. As I walk in faith in Christ, the Spirit can manifest those in me. This is why he says the law is not of faith."
Real trust produces works.
James 2
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Do I really trust YHWH if I will not put into practice what He has commanded? The demons do not do what YHWH commanded. If a child says that he trusts his father, but won't obey him, what is the problem? Real righteousness is displayed in real obedience to the one we really trust.
Shalom
AMEN Mark T Family!!!!!
ReplyDeleteYour explainations and insight in the Word are "spot-on"!!!!!
Jordan and Grace
Jordan,
ReplyDeleteDid you get my email?
Shalom
I got the first email you sent me. I replied to it. Did you not get mine back?
DeleteI do not think so.
DeleteCould you try again? I will be looking closely.
Shalom
Mark of TFamily,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote: "One thing that is hard for me to understand. Most of you folks seem to speak out clearly and often that the law should be followed. The writers of the epistles have much opportunity to just come out and say the same: "Fellow followers of Christ. I am not trying to nullify the law, you still need to keep it." But to me they seem to point to its weakness to save and to sanctify."
1st) no one says that the law saves. 2nd) I wonder what your definition of sanctify is.
How about these to answer your question above:
Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6
15 What then? shall we sin (transgress the law), because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Romans 7
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2 Peter 2
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
James 2
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Shalom
Bo, I can't wait to hear someone echo King Agrippa in Acts 26:27,28 "Almost thou persuadeth me."
ReplyDeleteI hope I speak out clearly and often that the Law should be obeyed and followed. We (the Kerr family) are not doing it for salvation. We don’t fear the Judge will crack us if we don’t. We do it because this is how the Wise apostles and prophets lived and how they taught me to live by what they wrote. This is the faith that is written, it is the faith I was taught in church, it is the expression of the Spirit in me. It is me being set apart to Him and good works. The Bible calls that sanctification.
ReplyDeleteSomeone please tell me “what is it” that you are talking about that is gone and done away with?? Mark, you say we are not obligated by anything that is written, at least I hear that in what I read.
It is wrong to say Y’shua did it for me and I don’t have to… You don’t really believe that if your conscience pricks you when you drive by someone on the road with a flat tire. You don’t have to stop because “Jesus did it for you”.
Baptism/immersion, tithing, helping widow and orphans, being kind to animals, being good neighbors… This is the Torah. I say you do the stuff you do because it is in your heart. That is because, in part, the Torah is being written on your hearts, and mine. And because of the indwelling of the Ruach ha’Kodesh(Holy Spirit).
Did someone quote our brother James saying in James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
What we “do” shows our faith. We agree on some basic points. Salvation by grace, not works. We also differ. We disagree. But about what? If you give to others, you show forth what your faith is. If you immerse a new brother or sister in messiah, it is a work that shows faith. Keeping “old testament laws” is the same. Immersion is not new in the Gospels. It is a Commandment. Tithing is a Commandment. Giving to the poor is a Commandment. We cannot select only what is explicitly re-stated in the Gospels or Epistles to follow. Those guys are drawing upon a culture of the Torah. Get used to it. It is true. Be great in the Kingdom by doing and teaching commandments. Mat 5:19
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
ReplyDeleteMat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
What is being said here? Who is speaking? To whom?
Scribes and Pharisees teach two things:(1)what they read directly from the Scriptures, (2) the other is the example of life that does not match the scriptures.
When they sat in the stone chair (seat of Moses) they could only read directly from the Torah. They could not teach or make comments.
I could continue on in responding to the previous things just shared, but I am not sure how profitable it would be. We disagree. These blogs just take too much time for me.
ReplyDeleteIf my understanding is correct, then you are basically saying that the great masses of believers over the history of the church have been wrong and that there is a small group, comparatively, that have the truth on this. Are you not saying that the men of God that He used greatly in periods of revival in our country and elsewhere, where millions were led to Christ, that they do not really understand God's word?
The implication that I gather from your comments is that I am deceived. I love my dear Savior. He is my life, my strength, my all. I hunger for His fullness daily. I so desire that His life of love, joy, patience, gentleness, goodness, meekness, faith, and self-control would be manifest in me.
Mark
I am saying what James says in James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
DeleteIn these days there is a return to Torah. I believe it is a move of the Spirit and not a great deception. Wesley, Stanley, Moody, Billy Graham...They all moved with the Spirit in their day.
I love your/my dear savior, too. He is my life, my hope and my all. Without Him I would fall.
Matt 28
Michael
This is the day. Choose now or miss it. It is Preparation Day and this evening is the Sabbath.
DeleteIt is great practice for things to come. This is a shadow of what the future holds. Choose now to enter His rest. You are all invited to my Sabbath Table tonight. Arrive just before the going down of the sun. We will lift up the cup and the bread and make b'rakah(blessing) just like Y'shua did when he fed thousands. We will feast on a fabulous meal my wife and daughters will prepare.
Will you join us to give thanks and bless YHWH who brings forth good things out of the earth?
It is a wonderful time as my wife and I and our ten children and our son's wife and my unborn-grandchild gather around our big table and laugh and talk about our favorite things that happened this week. We give praise and thanks to the one who gave us such great commandments to walk in.
Nothing legalistic, no one is tied up and forced to do anything. It is pure Joy to have this life,this family,These Mitzvot (commands).
You will probably like it so much you will want to do it at your house next week.
Please RSVP so we can set a place for you. :)#
Shabbat Shalom!
Michael
Mark of TFamily,
DeleteWhat if we are saying that all the ones before us were sinners. They already believed that. You think that you are a sinner. I think that I am one. The issue is whether we repent of the sins that we know that we commit. We all commit sins that we do not know about. Sometimes it comes to our attention later and we can repent...and then we ought to. YHWH's law was given to us so that we could repent, both in the big sense for salvation, and in the small sense every day. It reveals to us our sin. Paul tells us this plainly. We do not seek to be justified by keeping the law, we simply look into the mirror of YHWH's perfect law and adjust our life to match what YHWH calls righteous and holy living. If we read and and do not do it, we deceive ourselves.
What of those that have gone before us? We cannot rest upon their obedience, and we certainly do not want to continue to sin as they sinned. There is even scriptural precedent for us confessing the sins of our fathers (maybe even church fathers). What if YHWH didn't have our forefathers keep Sabbath...what is that to thee?
John 21
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Just because YHWH may not have revealed everything to our forefathers, in their day, does not mean that we should not be faithful to what He has revealed to us in our day.
Deuteronomy 29
29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Somethings somehow were secret things to them that are not a secret to us. We even need to be concerned about our secret faults.
Psalm 19
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
I do not know what you find wrong with the sentiments expressed above. Seems like any believer would have to agree with the above words.
Shalom
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThose "reformers" gave their lives that I might have the liberty to read and follow the scriptures today. I give thanks for those men. But, I also want to pick up where they left off. I will be a reformer, too. I will call men to obey the Word while they can. I am sure you know people like Finney kept the Sabbath but on the first day of the week instead of the seventh. Yes, I think he was wrong. but he came out of the catholic-dominated religious realm that hated Jews and did all in their power to distance themselves from the ones who "killed Jesus". Yes, they were wrong about some things I wish I could change. But we owe them a lot for the liberties we now enjoy. They were right about a lot, too.
DeleteThey did their best with what they knew. That is what I will do.
Mark of TFamily,
ReplyDeleteYes it takes a lot of time and effort to participate in a blog like this. It may be worth it if Mark and Bo, Jeff and Mike, and Jordan and Sid all love YHWH and His word and are willing to try to understand each other's perspectives instead of holding out for their views.
Mike, Sid and Bo once held Jeff, Mark, and Jordan's view. They resisted many attempts from others trying to get through to them. One day YHWH opened their eyes to see what was impossible for them to agree to when they were stubbornly holding out for what was in their comfort zone. They had to count the cost. It was big. Are they great because of this? NO! They are more accountable. They realize more fully their sin and their pride.
Of course Mark, Jordan and Jeff think that it is prideful for Bo to talk like he just did, but they just might think that Bo, Mike, and Sid are the ones holding out for things in their comfort zone.
Proverbs 27
17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
Malachi 3
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Shalom
Bo, I appreciate what you are trying to say, I really do.
ReplyDeleteJust a question (not an adversarial one, but a genuine question?).
Could it be that I (we) are honestly contrained by God's Word with our views as opposed to just "holding out"? I would love to hold your view, I have nothing against it.
I think we all need to be Bereans as well. When I take what I hear from Jim Staley and Messer I hear heresy at the foundation, but also really good stuff. I like listening to Messer, especially his Torah and government. But he is building a premise that most of the conservative, evangelical, reformation church has been deceived. What does he base it on? 3 or more heretics. That is a straw man. He says that Marcion, Origen and Constantine were key theologians that influenced the reformation. That is simply not true. Constantine was not even a theologian. The reformers doctrine DID lift up the law, unlike Marcion and Origen, etc.
Yes, Messer needs this wrong view of church history to come across as correct.
I think if you read the theology and confessions of the reformation, you'll find that Messer and company have a lot to offer if they work with them and not against them.
Again, I think Messer has a lot to offer, but he is also falsely leading people away from the true church, not toward it.
All I am asking is that you be just as critical of a listener to some of these guys as you are the "whole church". They are spewing some pretty bad theology just the same as well.
Some bad theology does not matter, however, if it is built on a poor foundation, it is bad, and we need to be Bereans with what they are teaching as well.
We need the Torah AND the New Testament. LAW AND GRACE in the context of the whole story. I don't believe YHWH would have us lift the Torah above the NT or to limit our theology ONLY to the first five books.
jeffh
Jeff said: "I hear heresy at the foundation, but also really good stuff."
DeleteThat reminds me of a scripture.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
The heresy was named Y'shua.
Shalom, Michael
Act 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
DeleteAct 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
This was spoken to a Jewish audience just before the Gospel went out to all the nations(gentiles).
The word “sect ” is the same as heresy. We might quote the gruesome part of this text to one another. (Verse 26)
We can’t all be right.
Mark and Jeff, I accept your faith as genuine, your love as real, your godliness as sincere. There are lots of people I don't agree with. You are just some of them.
Have a good sabbath everybody. I guess no one is coming over. Sad.
Shabbat shalom!
Michael
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI do not know much about either Jim Staley or (Ralph?)Messer. I would agree with you that we should not swallow whatever men say. I would also say that we should eat the fruit and spit out the seeds. Every good garden needs to have the weeds pulled on occasion. There may be others on this blog that can speak to Staley and Messer's teachings. I cannot. If it Ralph Messer that you are referring to, I cannot accept his approach very well...at least how he approached things 10 years ago. I know nothing of his new approach if it is different.
Trust me, I am a very critical listener of Messianic/Hebrew Roots preachers and teachers...at least to the very little I listen to. I could probably recite the names of 4 or 5 of these teachers. I would probably recognize 5 or 6 more if you spoke their names.
The way that I came to most of the ideas that I have posted is from personal study and personal interaction with other believers like Mike, Shannon, Barret, and Barret's father (Monty). If I hold to the same views that Messer, Staley, and other Hebrew roots teachers, it is not because they taught me. It is because I spent years in the scripture with a Bible program and a concordance. I was forced into this intensive study because of health issues. Unable to work and sometimes even walk, I lost myself and my pain by studying scripture to find our what it said. One interesting thing is that the reason that I developed the health issue that caused my scriptural education was that I overworked my self. No Sabbath.
I do not expect to convince you or Jordan or Mark. I hope that the scripture and discussion will set a fire in your spirit that can only be quenched by revelation from above...by the truth. We must not only seek the truth, but we must receive the love of the truth to be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
ReplyDelete"The mystery of iniquity" (Lawlessness/lawbreaking) has been at work since creation. We are constantly being fed the lie that we shall not surely die if we disobey YHWH's commandments. Grace does not give us excuse to disobey. It gives us a new start...as if we had never disobeyed. It gives us the power and incentive to obey. It teaches us to obey. It takes us down the path to the tree of life.
"Deceivableness of unrighteousness" is rampant in the church. HalleluYah for the home school movement. The authority of fathers being restored by the spirit of Elijah is huge. The responsibility is huge too. Fathers must step up to the plate to love and learn the truth and teach it to their children.
"Stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught." Not the ones that apostate religion has taught. Not that denominations have taught. Not that 20th/21st century American Christianity has taught. The letters of the apostles declare obedience over and over, but we have passed over those statements in search of a false freedom that keeps us in bondage to sin, to iniquity, to unrighteous living. The scripture declares the same message from beginning to end.
Genesis 2
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Ecclesiastes 12
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
We choose the tree of live when we choose to obey YHWH's commandments. We choose death when we continue to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil by deciding for ourselves what is right and wrong...or even go along with the flow of man’s version of righteousness and morality.
Holiness has only to do with obedience. Whoever we obey, we are set apart to him. Our father is obvious. Our Husband is obvious. Our Master is obvious. It is obvious by whose Sabbath we keep and whose holy days we keep and whose diet we keep and whose wardrobe we wear. The things that have little or no connection to morality are the test of loyalty. The test of faith. Will we do things that do not make sense to us, or do we remain in our cultural and church comfort zone. Are we really children of Abraham if we stay where we are at doing the things that peers do? Will we answer the call to come out of our culture and comfort zone and be His people?
Revelation 18
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
2 Corinthians 6
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
There are still unclean things in the flesh and in the spirit. Will we accept YHWH’s judgment or stick to our own version of good and evil, right and wrong, clean and unclean? Will we live by the house rules and be His children, or remain in Babylon?
Shalom
ReplyDeleteMark of TFamily,
ReplyDeleteThere are many commandments that are not for you or me. The ones pertaining to women, Levites, priests, etc. There are many commandments that YHWH has made impossible for us to keep. Temple offerings, tithing, ashes of the red heifer etc. There are many that can be kept. Celebrating YHWH's holy days and Sabbath, dietary laws, not murdering, not coveting, etc. We will not be accountable for not doing those that are not for us or impossible for us. We will be responsible for teaching all of it and doing all we can.
In the millennium, the temple will be rebuilt. Offerings will be offered. There will be a place to go to celebrate the feasts that has YHWH's name there again. Even the nations will be required to keep the feasts on pains of drought and plagues. We have the opportunity to joyfully obey YHWH now and be rewarded for it. If He didn't want us to keep His commandments, He would not promise greatness in the Millennial kingdom for doing and teaching them now. (Mat. 5:19)
Shabbat Shalom
Shabbat Shalom Everyone!
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ReplyDelete